Is selling Somme Relics legal?

[veklee]

metal detectors , ilegal or not in france, fines if caught with one ? just been watching the shopping channel(sad or wot ) 33euros to buy one ||||||||||||

[healdav]

metal detectors , ilegal or not in france, fines if caught with one ? just been watching the shopping channel(sad or wot ) 33euros to buy one ||||||||||||

Wearily, he said.

I have previously pointed out on this thread - and quoted the precise law, it is completely illegal in France to use a metal detector on abattle field - or to go digging aroun. Using a detector includes having it in the car.

The maximum fine if 10,000 euros (and it gets handed down several times each year). You can get a prison sentence as well.

All this is printed in three languages on all IGN battlefield maps.

Now, do you think that this time you could actually read and accept what I am saying.

P.S. If you do end up inside, don't bother to call for the British consul, he won't make any effort to come from Paris, and I'm not into prison visiting.

[veklee]

Dont talk to me like im stupid i was just pointing out what i saw on the tv,

[veklee]

dont talk to me like im stupid i was just pointing out what i saw on the tv,

by the way it was a french shopping channel

[willy]

Regardless of the nationality of the shopping channel, it is illegal to be in possesion of a metal detector in France.

No excuses when caught will wash with the gendarmarie.

No law to say you can't actually purchase one, but use it, carry it and youre in it, rightly upto your neck.

[veklee]

Regardless of the nationality of the shopping channel, it is illegal to be in possesion of a metal detector in France.

No excuses when caught will wash with the gendarmarie.

No law to say you can't actually purchase one, but use it, carry it and youre in it, rightly upto your neck.

that is what i was going on about ,how can they advertise something that is illegal to use ? and show you where to use it ,like on the beach and in gardens ??, doesnt it make a mockery of the law ? french channels, french laws must be why i like living in paris so much

[Gunner Bailey]

Regardless of the nationality of the shopping channel, it is illegal to be in possesion of a metal detector in France.

No excuses when caught will wash with the gendarmarie.

No law to say you can't actually purchase one, but use it, carry it and youre in it, rightly upto your neck.

This cannot be correct. I have seen a French metal detecting magazine, and have seen them for sale in shops. It is only their use in historic locations that's illegal. If you watch the programme ' Battlefield Detectives' they used a detector (with permission) on the Agincourt battlefield for three days and found one arrowhead.

As I understand French Law on metal detectors, they are banned on historic sites, but on other land you need the landowner's and the local mayor's permission. That's it.

If it's illegal to possess a detector, then shops could not hold them for sale.

Gunner Bailey

[auchonvillerssomme]

This thread is going round in circles. Isn't the question of detectors being legal or illegal discussed to death early on? So many experts so little information. I discussed the question at post 13 and still don't know the answer? Gunner Bailey is right, how can they advertise them in shop windows?

Mick

[willy]

Mick

As you don't appear to be happy with the "experts" info, and as you have a home on the somme, why not try asking your local mairie? or your local gendarme, you might just get the same amount of info.

Then will you share the info here, it just might then sink in and stop going around in circles.

[Old Chap]

Using a detector in France is illegal as we know. It doesn't seem to stop some of the locals though.

Bill

[willy]

ok , i am talking using them on the battlefields, go use one, in broad daylight and see how you get on.

[veklee]

ok , i am talking using them on the battlefields, go use one, in broad daylight and see how you get on.

wish i hadnt started this again, nxt time wont turn tv on till shopping channels have gone.

[JAT58]

The French certainly like dishing out fines.

7 Years ago stopped at a Peage to pay the toll when the local Gendarmerie noticed a radar detector in the car.

(Perfectly legal in the UK and many European Countries)

£1000.00 on the spot fine, £500.00 for possessing the detector and £500.00 for allegedly using it plus confiscated a £350.00 detector.

Tried persuading the Gendarme that it was switched off all to no avail.

One Holiday turned out to be very expensive

[Gunner Bailey]

wish i hadnt started this again, nxt time wont turn tv on till shopping channels have gone.

Post 187 - That's not my quote. How did that happen?

To those asserting the total illegality of detectors in France - a. Can you prove it? b. On my next trip I'll try to buy the French metal detecting magazine I saw before and will display it on this forum.

Gunner Bailey

[willy]

they are, ask a mairie, gendarme, french consul but before you use one, it will save you a 10,000 euro fine and possibly sometime in a cell.

oh and if you don't believe me goodluck.

[willy]

FRANCE The use of metal detectors was controlled by the use of the war time Patrimony Act 1941 but, on the 18 December 1989 Law Number 89-900 (NOR: MCCX8900 163L) was adopted which states:

Article 1: No one may use metal detecting equipment for the purpose of searching for monuments and objects which could interest (concern?) prehistory, history, art or archaeology without first having obtained administrative authorisation issued according to the qualification of the applicant and also the nature and method of searching.

Article 2: All publicity and instructions on the use of metal detectors must carry the warning of the prohibition stated in Article 1, the penalties involved and also the reason for this legislation.

Article 3: Every infringement of the present law will be noted by officers, police agents and other law enforcement officers, as well as by officials, agents and guardians of Article 3 of the law number 80-532 of 15 July 1980 relative to the protection of public collections against acts of vandalism.

Article 4: The reports drawn up by the various persons designated by Article 3 above will, until proved to the contrary, be given or sent, without delay, to the public prosecutor of the Republic in the jurisdiction where the offence was committed.

Under French law the enactment of legislation is followed by the Decree which determnines how the law will be applied. In this case the Decree states:

Article 1 The authorisation to use metal detectors, provided for by Article1 of the 18 December 1989 Law is granted, on the demand of the interested party, by the licence of the Prefect of the region in which the land to be searched is situated.

The request for authorisation must establish the identity, competence and experience of the applicant as well as the location, scientific objective and the duration of the searches to be undertaken.

When the searches are to be carried out on land which does not belong to the applicant, the written application must be accompanied by a document of consent written by the owner of the land and, if appropriate, anyone else who has the right.

Article 2 Anyone who uses a metal detector to carry out searches of the sort described in Article 1 of the Law without having first obtained the authorisation required or who does not observe the requirements described in Article 1 of this Decree will be punished by the fine applicable for contraventions of the fifth class. The equipment used in the infringement will be confiscated.

Article 3 Whoever publicises or draws up publicity for, or draw up information about the use of metal detectors and fails to draw attention to the requirements of Article 2 of the Law will be punished according to the penalties applicable for offences of the fifth class.

Beaches are believed to be outside this Law.

nuff said

[Guest tafski]

well i think that sums it up in a nutshell well researched willy.

Taski

[Nick.Wotherspoon]

Seems like a well researched summary of the situation, but as with everything in france it is probably only the tip of the iceberg as regards the restrictions imposed and no doubt each department as its own additional rules and level of priority given to enforcing them.

There are two french MD magazines I have come across & a quick Google soon finds their websites:

Le Fouilleur - http://www.lefouilleur.fr/

Detection passion - http://perso.orange.fr/detection.passion/cadrsomm.htm

I own several metal detectors including sophisticated deep seeking equipment and magnetometers, I have only ever taken a basic detector with me to France & then only for beachcombing out of season - this I have been reliably led to understand is permitted and I have encountered gendarmes several times on beaches with no problem at all.

HOWEVER - I NEVER take one with me when exploring the battlefields (or a shovel for that matter) and most definitely would not like to even be found in the vicinity of such an area with one in the car - From what I have been told, French police don't even have to actually catch you in the act - i.e. going equipped is enough to prove the offence.

I also agree with others that this attempted justification by whether or not detecting is legal is getting off the point - most of the places I go, I would think a detector would be useless in any case due to the quantity of metal in the ground and as for sticking a nice sharp steel shovel into the ground without knowing what it was about to hit would be suicidal!!!

I feel that the real question here is a moral one and on that point everyone is going to have differing opinions and the bottom line is each individual conscience.

[healdav]

Yet again, anyone who does not believe that metal detectors are illegal on battlefields in France should have a look at battlefield maps. They print it in three languages to make sure you get the message.

Proclaiming British Empire nationality won't wash.

To use one on a beach or wherever you should really have permission from the local mayor but they don't get worked up over this.

Of course, if you should turn up a UXB!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, and one forum member nearly did get arrested simply for being on a battleifeld when any normal person would have been sheltering from the storm. It meant that she must have been up to no good.

At Verdun even being off the marked trails can be interpreted as being up to no good.

[Gunner Bailey]

The information provided by Willy proves that my two line summary in an earlier post was right. Metal detecting is not illegal in all of France only on Historic sites and my summary of the permissions was also correct.

Nick has aso confirmed my point about metal detecting magzines.

Enough said.

Ta Willy.

Gunner Bailey

[Rodge Dowson]

Detecorists are mostly responsible and work within the law, some of the so called Grave robbers I have had rumours of are not based on this side of the water anyway. The use of detectors on archaelogical sites was frowned on once but is now a vital and accepted part of digs. It is how the items are recovered, listed and conserved that matters greatly. Taking an object from a location without following these principles, this is something not to be proud of and causes missing pieces to important historical jigsaws.

[willy]

There are detectorists based here that travel abroad to Battlefield areas.

The use of detectors on correctly permissioned digs is not what this thread is about.

Its the illegal use, that is.

Rumours its not, fact it is, that illegal use of detectors does go on.

[willy]

The following from a metal detector site via google, there for anyone to read, thought you all might like to see it.

"Danger! Danger! Danger!

Digging on World War 1 and 2 Battlefields is a very dangerous business.

Literally thousands of tons of unexploded ordinance lies undiscovered in the fields of France, Belgium, Holland and Germany.

Up to 30 people are killed every year by unexploded bombs and artillery shells in France alone.

Bombs, Artillery shells, Grenades and bullets are designed with a single purpose in mind - to kill. Leave them alone, should you come across any on your travels, get yourself as far away from them as possible and inform the Police- Don't become another victim of the Iron Harvest.

To see the kind of ordinance that is still being dug up visit De Diggers Battlefield Exploration's Photo Gallery, and bear in mind that these guys and gals really know what they are doing.

Many countries have made it illegal to dig for battlefield relics. Before digging anywhere check that it is legal to do so, make sure you have the permission of the land owner, preferably in writing and be very very careful.

Another Danger...

Two British Battlefield relic collectors were recently arrested after the Police raided their premises and found illegal material.

The two experienced diggers were unaware that the material the police seized required licensing that they didn't have, the two men are currently on bail awaiting trial. If convicted they face a minimum of five years imprisonment.

If two experienced Battlefield diggers can make mistakes you can too. Getting blown up is no joke, going to prison for years is no joke either, limit your searches and collecting to relics that don't have the potential to go bang.

It goes without saying that I will except no responsibility for the actions of anyone who goes digging for battlefield relics after reading this web site, nor will I except responsibility for the consequences of your battlefield digging expeditions. If you get maimed, blown up or arrested whilst digging, it is not my fault.

You use the information or advice found on this site entirely at your own risk - and the risks involved in battlefield digging can be considerable.

Obey the law and correct safety procedures"

[Nick.Wotherspoon]

If two experienced Battlefield diggers can make mistakes you can too. Getting blown up is no joke, going to prison for years is no joke either, limit your searches and collecting to relics that don't have the potential to go bang.

Obey the law and correct safety procedures"

Some good points raised here - Most, you would think, would be common sense to most people - But sadly we are seeing this obviously not the case We visit many areas and I confess love exploring off the beaten track and photographing relics and very occasionally I admit to keeping the odd small item - as many of those on here it seems also do - and my conscience is clear in this respect - I do not touch anything I do not know exactly what it is and never any ordnance.

However I tend to reserve my aquisitive tendencies for my own area of expertise- Aviation Archaeology, in which I have condiderable specialist knowlege - including a healthy respect for the dangers of dealing with any number of items that could potentialy go bang - not all conventionally explosive! and a respect for the numerous pieces of legislation and official bodies that I have to deal with to keep my activities firmly within the letter of the law - Not to mention the health and safety implications of using plant machinery, deep excavations and other hazadous materials we encounter - everything from pockets of aviation fuel to discarded 60 year old asbestos fire blankets!!! - see my website at: web.ukonline.co.uk/lait/site/

Apart from the obvious? various restrictions governing possesion of explosives, there are of course our country's complicated firearms laws and I am often amazed by "collectors" apparent ignorance of this area - a flare pistol is potentially a Section 5 prohibited weapon, as is of course any machine gun - relic condition means nothing unless it has been inspected and declared outside the terms of the firearms act, with the required paperwork to prove this. Hand guns are of course similarly prohibited and again rusted solid means nothing without the appropriate paperwork - In some cases proper deactivation may still be required to obtain this and in fact if the weapon is in poor condition this may not even be possible and the weapon may have to be destroyed. I often encounter the attitude that such rules are ridiculous and no one will ever bother - Oh! Wont They?, even posession of a part for a machine gun can technically be classed as an offence.

All the weapons I have recovered - from parts of aircrew's side arms up to intact 20mm Hispano cannons (9 feet long!!! ) go on public dispaly at our museum so have to be strictly within the letter of the law (No bad thing IMO) In the current climate I feel that enforcement will only get stricter and of course ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law - Think I might start collecting badges instead!!!

[Guest tafski]

Think the issue of useing metal detectors on the battlefields has now been well covered the info and warnings are there to be read by one and all,lets get back to the original is it illegal to sell relics , i for one believe that as long as the items are inert and can not be used to identify a lost soul items such as empty cartidges shell casings ect as sold by many farmers for a few euroes,is this to be deemed illegal?

tafski