Is selling Somme Relics legal?

[willy]

GB

I don't buy the public service angle either as expounded by Willy.

Please explain Max.

[Max]

Hello Willy

Its the sentence "If there was no digging, then a lot of lost souls would still be lost." that I have a problem with. It seems to imply that collectors should be able to root around the battlefields, digging where they like because without them remains would never be recovered. In effect they are performing a public service.

Andy

[willy]

Hello Willy

Andy

I'm afraid i see it as fact, if there was no digging at all, as some on this forum would like to see, then very very few remains would have been found since the war, superb groups such as De Diggers or No Mans Lands, do a fantastic job and this is a service to the fallen and their families, indeed if the Boezinghe site had been properly cleared after the war by the authorities some of the 214 found by De Diggers may have been identified.

I detest those who openly steal from remains found, such as what happened to No Mans Land, and more recently at Delville wood, how many more have been desecrated in this way i hate to think.

I have no problem with anyone who searches and finds bits and bobs, field walks or buys from the right sources, it's the few who would knowingly rob remains for profit that i dislike.

[Max]

I'm afraid i see it as fact, if there was no digging at all, as some on this forum would like to see, then very very few remains would have been found since the war, superb groups such as De Diggers or No Mans Lands, do a fantastic job and this is a service to the fallen and their families, indeed if the Boezinghe site had been properly cleared after the war by the authorities some of the 214 found by De Diggers may have been identified.

Willy, please see my post 145.

As you no doubt should have realised from my previous responses I am not talking about these two groups, rather the individual who goes out with a shovel with just the intention of monetary gain or enhancement of their "relic" collection regardless of what damage they may cause.

Andy

[willy]

Willy, please see my post 145.

I was responding to your post 132, i can see you have clarified your points, mine was that without digging there would be a lot more lost souls, finding remains with objects that could be used to id the person, and removing them, without the effort to go through the id process correctly is what i despise.

A body must be recovered with all around it in terms of possesions if there is to be any hope of an id , not remove what you want and move on, or raid an already found body before the authorities have chance to recover it.

[Chris Noble]

Hi willy/Max.

Willy, i agree with the context of the organizations such as De Diggers etc, who, as you well know, have a licence to dig, granted by their Government. Nothing appalled me more than to see the No Mans Land Dig Site 'raided' by who knows for monetary gain.

As regards Max's comments, i agree whole heartedly.

It is the individual in this context.

There have been numerous threads on the Forum as regards this activity, some individuals, who have previously been mentioned to having being involved in these activities are still 'plying their wares' on numerous Internet Auction Sites.

Only one thing you can do. Don't buy anything from the aforementioned, and if you see them engaged in the activity in question, report them to the local authorities.

As we have discussed before willy, Mametz seems to be a 'hot spot' at the minute.

Kindest regards,

Chris.

[willy]

To think that this problem is down to individuals chris is blinkered, digging for relics is well organised, and there is often several people involved from finding to point of sale, however to go back to the thread title, yes it's illegal to remove anything from the battlefields, and sell it, those guys with the rubber gloves are beginning to take a distinct interest in the issue.

Mametz is one of several hot spots at the moment, some are slightly less well known.

[Chris Noble]

Hi Willy.

Totally agree, and i wish, boy, do i wish, i could mention some names.

However, at the risk of breaching Forum rules, i will now not post any longer on the subject.

Kindest regards willy/Max. It is the commemoration and respect for the dead, what ever nation that brought us all to this website. Lets not let them 'down'.

Chris.

[Alan Lines]

In answer to the original question, I don't know but why bother buying the stuff anyway? Just go over there and pick it up for free, that way you know that your item really did come from Serre or wherever. For me there is nothing better than researching an action, walking it and then actually finding a relic in that area. Nobody is going to worry about the odd shrapnel ball or whatever, I've even been thanked in a bar by a farmer for helping to clear his field for him. I've spent days walking the fields and all these stories about finding loads of bones and the like just don't wash. (unless it's my poor eye sight?) Sorry if you disagree but I think my display at home is great, but then again I also split medals and sell them on ebay.

[Andrew Hesketh]

....Sorry if you disagree but I think my display at home is great, but then again I also split medals and sell them on ebay.

Oh, blimey.....

NO, NO, NO, EVERYONE. THIS THREAD IS NOT THE PLACE TO DEBATE THAT ONE.....

[Dave1914]

For me there is nothing better than researching an action, walking it and then actually finding a relic in that area.

I suppose for many its a kinda souvenir of their holidays. Its not stick of rock but a momento of an action in which you have painstakingly read and researched does deserve a momento, including that of your walk. Maybe even more so if the action you were researching was undertaken by a relative.

[59165]

If any of you had seen the militaria sale at Sailly on the Somme last weekend,you could have been forgiven for disbelieving that digging/detecting for profit was illegal there .Unbelievable stuff for sale there,if rusty shyte is your thing .

Grenades(unlawful in many sales),bayonets(illegal in French shops)helmets & bits & bobs that were NOT just trawled off the surface.

It just depends where you go.

Sailly (close enough to Albert)also had a few ebay sellers there(french),banned many times under many names on ebay yet,still some of you buy from these monkeys.

Go your own way but if you want to stop the digging ,it wont happen.

The types that sell stuff marked to a 'popular' region,deserve a slapping of enourmous proportions.

From Delville wood?I've seen the bits for sale in the UK.

Why do you think that its rare/impossible to find a 'relic' from ebay.fr?

Cos its against the law & that is why they have started listing them on the UK site.

Dont do it!

[Rupert]

Around the Ist July this year there were many car boot sales in the immediate Albert/Somme region. At Fricourt, actually on the 1st, one could find intact SRD rum jars, British and German rifles (wood rotted off of course), bayonettes from both sides, shell timers etc, all found by the farmers or families from the town. These people were not dealers, only folk selling junk they had found in their vegetable plots, fields or barnyards. I picked up a near-pristine SRD rum jar for 1 Euro, and the lady wanted to sell me all the war-related stuff for 4 Euros. She probably would have taken 2, just to be rid of them. It was a huge car boot and we were the only 'foreigners' there.

I've seen rum jars for sale for up to 50 Euros - ludicrous.

Stu

[Gunner Bailey]

Around the Ist July this year there were many car boot sales in the immediate Albert/Somme region. At Fricourt, actually on the 1st, one could find intact SRD rum jars, British and German rifles (wood rotted off of course), bayonettes from both sides, shell timers etc, all found by the farmers or families from the town. These people were not dealers, only folk selling junk they had found in their vegetable plots, fields or barnyards. I picked up a near-pristine SRD rum jar for 1 Euro, and the lady wanted to sell me all the war-related stuff for 4 Euros. She probably would have taken 2, just to be rid of them. It was a huge car boot and we were the only 'foreigners' there.

I've seen rum jars for sale for up to 50 Euros - ludicrous.

Stu

An SRD for a Euro is a major bargain. I've found the average price now to be around 15 euros, 5 euros for a fuse, but prices vary hugely. I found one guy this year selling restored Mills No5s for 18euros. Very nice too. He even sold me a nice Mills 23 dated 11/16 with good rod for the same price. He had a big variety of stuff, was a nice well dressed guy of about 60-65 and I had the impression these were from his land and he restored these items as a money making hobby, perhaps supplementing a pension.

Gunner Bailey

[rob K]

Hi,This is my first post here on the site. On the subject of the Somme and metal detecting. I have spent many hours field walking the major battlesites on the Somme including Mametz woods (as mentioned previously) Cambrai,Gommecourt,Pozieres etc etc.

The times i spent walking the fields I was amazed by just how much material there is on the surface, shrapnel everwhere,which is why I think metal detecting would be a waste of time.

On the surface I found rifle parts,leather bits and pieces including German webbing items and part of a snake clasp belt,boot parts. The usual bullets and shrapnel balls and shell fragments. At one point I had found 6 LIVE mills bombs one of which was a fantastic rifle grenade and complete!. All of which I was carrying around in my pocket!! the things you do when you are young!!!

These were taken to a local who made them safe,by firstly leaving in his freezer then opening them up,he then gave you back the empty grenade!!!. He was an ex French bomb disposal.

My best find ever was a German bayonet complete with Ersatz scabbard (metal instead of leather) and with a saw-back,it has a hole in the scabbard and the metel was pushed out which had resulted in the whole bayonet being bent from the point of where the bayonet entered the scabbard. This hole was consistant with a shrapnel ball as the bayonet was sheathed probably resulted in the death of the soldier carrying it.

The area I stayed in was Pozieres and most of the locals if not all dealt in first war artifacts.It was almost like an underground economy everybody knew when something rare had been found but the finder would gaurd the info of the site with ther life.

Everybody had collections of items found and traded,the local scrap dealer had some amazing items some for sale others to be collected.

When I was there one year a large metal ring was found sticking up out of the ground on investigation it turned out to be the hitch to an 18pdr field gun.Which was almost complete. Will add more again,thanks for veiwing, Rob

[Gunner Bailey]

The area I stayed in was Pozieres and most of the locals if not all dealt in first war artifacts.It was almost like an underground economy everybody knew when something rare had been found but the finder would guard the info of the site with their life.

Everybody had collections of items found and traded,the local scrap dealer had some amazing items some for sale others to be collected.

Welcome to the forum Rob. You make a good point above. If this was on our doorstep I bet it would be the same here too. France paid a huge cost for WW1. Just look at every village memorial. If it pays something back to later generations, with some pocket money, you could say that was fair.

Gunner Bailey

[Terry_Reeves]

Just a warning. Do not put grenades in fridges and then try opening them up, you are just asking for trouble. No more "tips" about DIY bomb disposal in this thread please.

TR

[Max]

No more "tips" about DIY bomb disposal in this thread please.

Terry

How about allowing really bad tips about bomb disposal?...that way we have the kudos of having a forum member in the running for a Darwin Award, and the resultant carnage may act as a deterent to others.

Andy

[auchonvillerssomme]

No Andy, I tried that it didn't work, irony and sarcasm are lost...several members thought I was seriosuly advocating the removal of the explosives with the pointy end of a live round and that I could be influencing simple minds. Years ago on the Somme someone pointed out a local farmer who was an 'expert' on defusing grenades, his missing fingers told a story of plenty of practice. Why on earth anyone would want a rusty dug up one is beyond me.

There is another serious issue about those visiting fairs and handling those bits and pieces, what is going to be your explanation when customs swab your steering wheel and detect something?

Mick

[Gunner Bailey]

There is another serious issue about those visiting fairs and handling those bits and pieces, what is going to be your explanation when customs swab your steering wheel and detect something?

Mick

Mick

Interesting point made there. It would mainly affect those travelling by the Tunnel, where such checks are carried out. At an arms / antique fair in France last November I handled some live firearms (some fully live WW1 and WW2 SMLEs) and some ammunition, whilst only buying WW1 non live bits. Having some safe relics in the car whilst having explosive traces on the hands could lead to an interesting interview. Might be worth buying some alcohol scrub lotion.

Gunner Bailey

[willy]

Some the posts on this thread, just go to show how stupid some people were/can be and are.

Any unfired munitions have the same capability as when they were first made, the intention originally was to kill and or maim, this they can still do just as efficiently.

The thought that on my many trips across i have possibly been close to a bootfull of death and destruction leaves me with a very nasty feeling.

Pals, don't ruin your day or mine by handling and transporting anything that can go bang.

Oh and you will get no sympathy from me when those nice customs officers put on the glove, and evacuate the ferry terminal, causing total chaos for thousands of travellers, and me.

[Mick D]

An e-bay expert was selling a WW1 pistol the other day, but thankfully he included the word 'INERT'

(It was neither deactivated nor in a ruinous state. It was reported via the authorities and removed. Seller hopefully prosecuted)

Mick D

[trenchtrotter]

Plenty of "relic" badges about too.

TT

[Garron]

how many of them are real?

Most are repro's left in a flower pot for a few weeks and/or twisted with a pair of pliers to give that '90 years under the somme' look.

Gaz

[rob K]

With regards to my previous post,i was not advocating the use of amateur bomb disposal,far from it. I was 19 at the time 36 now,and yes now I look back,well lets just say i am gald i can look back.

I travelled to the Somme three times ayear for nearly 10 years,i have not been back now for a while,Met some fantastic if not a little eccentric people. If you have visited Pozieres i am sure you will know Domonic who used to run the local museum, which was behind a liitle cafe,complete with trenches! he used to wear full WW1 officers dress!!

I went to France with a group of friends one of which had an incredible knowledge of the whole battle Somme battlefiled,this made the trips almost like a history filed trip,his father incidently had served in the war on the Somme and gone over the top 3 times. I had the great honour of meeting him on several times,sadly like so many of the Tommies he has passed on.

All the items i found on the Somme are still to this day in my collection,i know some people say why would you want something so dirty and rusty, but to me its a part of history,and if i want to see nice shiny examples of the same items i will go to a museum.

Hopefully i will visit again and see the friends i made all those years ago, I have friends in nothern France now so could carry on from there one being an ex Foreign Legionnaire who would be great as a translator.

Will try and post some pics from the battlefields when i have more time.