Is selling Somme Relics legal?

[CROONAERT]

Isn't everyone getting emotional and upset about something that is exagerated by every telling

Not everyone, Mick. See my post number 21. I personally couldn't give two hoots about the matter - if someone wants to walk the battlefields picking up everything that they find, then why should that bother me? All I can say is that if they happen to shove a live toffee-apple in their boot on their return, please don't park next to my car on the ferry!

Dave.

[Chris_Baker]

I don't think you can classify all battlefield material in the same way. There is a world of difference between digging out a Lee Enfield barrel that you found illegally with a metal detector, and picking up a shrapnel shard or bullet cartridge case from the surface. On the ground fought over most intensively, the latter type is there in profusion. It is by no means grave robbing or in my opinion damaging to the long-term archaeological importance of this ground to pick it up. Digging to extract material is, again in my opinion, abhorrent. Picking up live ammunition is just plain stupid.

[T8HANTS]

somebody said that some items find you!

I walked out of my house here on the Isle of Wight last week and found a shrapnel ball in the gutter. I have to my knowledge only ever pick up three, and they are accounted for.

serendipity I suppose.

By the way did the French ever pay us for all that valuable scrap we left in their fields, or are we just taking Gt Grandfathers taxes back? Did we renounce title to it?

[Guest geoff501]

part of article from Daily Sketch, July 23 1927

[Simon R]

Is selling Somme Relics Legal?

May I draw members attention to: UNESCO Convention on the means of prohibiting and preventing the illicit Import, Export and transfer of ownership of cultural property

The following articles are pertinent to this discussion, though the whole document is worth reading.

Articles 1b and 1c, Articles 5a and 5d, Article 6a, Article 13a, Article 14

Further to this, the following EEC regulation of 1992 is useful too: EEC regulation on the export of cultural goods and inparticular Articles 1 and 2 (1) and Annex of cultural objects especially A14(a)

[Marco]

Simon,

Good to know UNESCO did something to protect shrapnel balls. Do they fall under the British or French cultural property?

It may be all black-and-white on paper but - as Chris says in other words - in reality it is different shades of grey.

Regards,

Marco

[Simon R]

The convention provides very broad, general principles - principles that do not preclude states drafting legislation that takes into account your concerns.

If ratifiers of this convention have failed to introduce legislation in line with the convention, and we have views on battlefield archaeology etc, then we are free to draw our own political conclusions from this.

Can I add that I'm not actually personally responsible for the drafting of this convention, before I draw fire on it.

[Gunner Bailey]

A fascinating debate.

There is nothing illegal about metal detecting in France except for battlefield sites, where as in the UK for archeological reasons, for reasons of decency (there are still skeletal remains being dug up) and for safety reasons (people still get killed by unexploded ordnance). I've seen a French metal detecting magazine so I think that must prove it is legal as a hobby.

On non battlefield sites you need the pemission of the landowner and the local mayor. If you own the land I'm sure nobody else would worry. I have a house and half an acre of land and have found a few .303's as the area was used for battle training in WW1. I've even found .303's from WW2 as well. I've never taken my detector off my own property.

It's interesting to see that people have advertised items from 'High Wood'. High wood is private fenced off property and unless the seller is the owner, these items must be regarded as stolen or of questionable origin. There are moral issues here but each person will view it diferently. I often buy items from French sellers in Brocantes on the Somme and the Pas de Calais that must have been dug up on the Somme. I assume they either own the land or have appropriate permissions. But who am I to question their right to dig up and sell these things. Mostly they sell British items, and there seems to be little demand for French relics.

Gunner Bailey

[artyali]

Simon as I said it's a moral issue, is it legal to receive stolen goods in the UK? Why not? If you don't know or care where items you buy have come from it speaks volumes about your character. I frankly don't care if a lawyer could get someone off for doing it. If you buy something that has clearly been taken from the battlefields recently you are in no position to moan when sites are robbed out, holes dug in woods or graves defiled. It’s a filthy trade and neither the seller nor the purchaser is clean. And the excuse that ‘it was lying around so I might as well take it’ is as pathetic on this forum as it would be a court of law.

If you field walk for finds rather than walk the battlefields that’s fine but those who do that can’t complain when the process is taken further. What do I think of those who pick up the odd nosecone or shrapnel ball? Not a lot really, the temptation must be huge to have a relic they can touch but it doesn’t stop there. Some time ago, I was with a friend who visited a forum member in France on our way to the Somme. He had quite a collection, very impressive, all found field walking “just need good eyes, know where to look and practice blah blah...”. As we left we both noticed the metal detector in the corner of the kitchen.

As I have said I can’t stop the trade but I hope I have enough character to be against it and take no part in it.

Dave

Borderman,

you have summed up my sentiments exactly in your posts! For example, i am trying to locate as much information about my Gt Uncle who was killed on The Somme.....and it really concerns me that even tiny fragments taken from the area by passers by and metal detector wielding idiots destroy my family's and others chances of piecing together not only the battle in which he died, but also vital information about how these brave soldiers perished. Its just morally worng, it is theft, it is dangerous and the argument surrounding supply and demand is a 'chicken and egg' scenario.....and just isnt credible im afraid. I agree it will never stop happening, but harsher penalties should be enforced to deter the thieves, because that is what they are.

Alison

[Mick D]

the first paragraph from Dave (borderman) as above is perfect, further to it, I wish that more of us could see the danger of bringing ordnance back, and stop this abhorrent practice.

Mick D

[artyali]

I do understand that we all have a common interest, but we all must understand that a forum is where things are debated, and sometimes peoples views are strong, others not so. I have made my views on the subject very clear, but would not discard others views...i still read them with interest. If we werent all so different in our views as human beings then the course of history would be very boring indeed.

It has been a very interesting thread to read, but those who talk about 'fuss' and 'panic' must understand that others do feel very strongly about things, even though you, yourself may not.

Alison

[healdav]

Isn't everyone getting emotional and upset about something that is exagerated by every telling...most of this is anectdotal..I hve heard the same stories repeated over with slight embelishments over the years which are again being told as happened last week..there is a post here from someone giving an informed opinion on the occurrence of metal detecting in france when I know for a fact that gentleman has only been to Ypres once and that was for 4 days 5 years ago. Bodies stripped? piles of bones? evil detectorists, that smugglers haven, ebay? Get a grip on reality.

Mick

The problem in some areas is appalling. The Ossuary at Verdun was originally built with the vaults open to the outside at the rear. People started stealing bones and skeletons, so now the windows are closed with armoured glass.

The TV news often shows a report on the problem of people taking anything and everything from battlefields. The gendarmerie tries to keep a close eye on things, but obviously it is difficult given that many battlefields are now thick forest. Mind you, the foresters can arrest people for digging on the battlefields and will given half a chance, especially if people are taking bones, etc.

Thos who pick up big shells and drive off with them in the boot often have a rapid ascent to the sky and come down in several pieces. TV shows them as well.

[loganshort]

There was a massive clean up of the battlefields after the armistice, collecting all the valuable metal discarded there. Metal relics buried under the mud and by shell fire still come up in the ploughing and cannot be left where they are. There are simply too many cropping up all the time and rusty metal is dangerous! Farmers in France have collected and disposed of these relics ever since the ending of the war. Now because people want to have some physical relic to connect them with a relative who fought there the farmers are selling off what they find at the many military bootfairs. I do not see anything wrong with this except the line has to be drawn at full excavation with metal detectors and any disturbance of human remains which should be the government's remit so that they can be identified and reburied properly. I have some items bought from the Albert museum and other collectors as my grandfather did not bring back any. In fact he left his right leg over there! I look upon a relic bayonet or (empty) bullet or shell case as a reminder of what my grandfather went through. They bring history to life. I cannot visit the Peronne museum every week!

[hudsonswhistle]

well said

[Kirkes Lamb]

It seems that large numbers of people on here tour the battlefields looking at their feet rather than at the actual lie of the ground

I don't collect BTW

Andy

Funny you should say that-I have been on a number of Holts Battlefied and History Tours and despite paying a lot of money for the experience, it was always interesting to see many of the participants looking at the ground moving the earth around with their feet (in the hope of finding something) whilst listening to the tour guide!

[Kirkes Lamb]

I looked at Ebay recently and saw someone advertising items found on the El Alamein battlefield! The foragers are braver ment than I am - the place is littered with mines and local inhabitants are still often killed or mutilated by straying off the road and known "safe" tracks! Without explosive, even picking up rusting metal has its own risks! Leave well alone I say!

[healdav]

As I said elsewhere, a golf courseis being built on a part of the battlefield and the builders can't believe that they keep on coming across UXB! They apparently think it's all the fault of the Egyptian army for not clearing it.

I always knew golfers lived in another world, now we now its golf course builders as well.

[Kirkes Lamb]

I wasnt aware of the new course! Where is it being built?

[healdav]

I wasnt aware of the new course! Where is it being built?

I don't know exactly. I saw the piece in a newspaper in Alexandia a couple of weeks ago, but I don't think it said much more than 'Alamein battlefield'

Apart from anything else, where on earth are they going to get the water from? Golf courses are about the most thirsty objects on the planet. One reason why it is only a question of time before the obsession is banned.

[Guest Trenchwire]

I looked at Ebay recently and saw someone advertising items found on the El Alamein battlefield! The foragers are braver ment than I am - the place is littered with mines and local inhabitants are still often killed or mutilated by straying off the road and known "safe" tracks! Without explosive, even picking up rusting metal has its own risks! Leave well alone I say!

These guys were from france and were selling relics from their trip on ebay

[PBI]

At the End of the Day Battlefield Debris is Battlefield Debris mostly rusted to Buggery,Pitted to Hell and not worth the Time and Effort in Humping it Home and spending Hours in Cleaning it up ..Cannot see the Point in carrying out last said procedure.All My Collection has Come mainly from Dealers in Belgium,all that old rot on E-Bay about where Ammo or Relics have come from is total pants.They could have come from anywhere on the Western Front.As the Old Adage Goes "There is One Born Every Minute"..Incidentally the El Alamein Battle Field is Set to Be Developed as one of the Largest Golf Courses in the World,only problem is that Eygpt is the Most Mine contaminated Country in the World with an ESTIMATED 23 MILLION Mines Still in Situ affecting an Area of 3,000 Square Kilometres.I notice in Passing that the Late Princess of Wales never Visited Eygpt in Her Capacity as Champion of Land mine Clearances.To Date Over 700 Eygptians have been Killed and over 8,000 wounded,since 1945.An excellent Book on the history of UX Munitions is Donovan Websters AFTERMATH.

[Tim Birch]

I find the whole question of collecting battlefield detrius strange. It begs the question as to why the battlefield visitor is there in the first place?

To me a battlefield is a sacred place, a place where geat acts of bravery have been carried out as well as a place of utter tragedy, and sadness.

I visit them to further my historical knowledge and actually relate the ground to what I have read or am reading, but the visit is also a pilgrimage to pay respect to and honour the brave and not so brave who had to endure such horrors there.

Yes, I admit to having picked up and kept bits of detrius like cartridge cases and shapnel balls in the past, but on reflection I now feel this was wrong and it is a practice I ceased years ago (I disposed of my small collection by putting it in a recycling bins - and felt a lot better after I had done it). I now believe that with the exception of dangerous ordnance which needs to be disposed of for safety's sake, all other detrious should be left where it is to slowly rot away with the sacred human remains which can never be recovered. I have come round to equating the collection of such items as verging on the ghoulish. There is a very thin line between genuine historical and human interest in a battlefield and morbid voyerism (the same motive which causes people to stare at a bad road accident), and we need to be careful that we don't cross that line.

As someone said earlier in this thread, it is akin to grave robbing. Someone else took offence at that post, but I believe the post may not have been far from the truth. There may be millions of shapnel balls, but that in itself tells a story, so why remove them? Just because there is a large quantity is not really an excuse for taking a few.

If you really wanted to keep a momento then take photographs.

That's my two penny worth.

[CROONAERT]

I have come round to equating the collection of such items as verging on the ghoulish. There is a very thin line between genuine historical and human interest in a battlefield and morbid voyerism (the same motive which causes people to stare at a bad road accident), and we need to be careful that we don't cross that line.

As someone said earlier in this thread, it is akin to grave robbing.

Each to their own, Tim. See my post (#90), though. Photographs don't cut much ice to a 5 year old. I doubt that he and his school pals have yet developed any morbid voyeuristic tendancies yet!

Dave

[healdav]

I have just noticed that on the bttlefield map of the Verdun area (3112ET) there is a notice in three languages.

Any archaeological digging is declared illegal if people do not have official authorization from the land owner and the regional Director of Cultural Affairs (art. 1,2 and 19 of he 27th Sept 1941 law). The use of iron detectors is forbidden without an official authorization from the Regional Prefet (Law 89-900 of the 18th December 1989).

Now you know.

And having a detector in you car on a battlefield is considered to be 'using'.

[Dave1914]

If you really wanted to keep a momento then take photographs.

That's my two penny worth.

I agree, but for some relics are more of a momento like many others have commented in this highly debated topic. I am hoping to visit the France battlefields myself one day soon with the intention of gaining a prespective of how the battle was fought and not to obtain items to sell.

I suppose its how you view your experiences and what you intend to gain from it that allows any to the question: is it legal to sell the relics; I personally think it should be. But if it was clamped down more wouldn't it ruin the experience for the people who want to gain a 'real' momento opposed to just recreations in a photograph? Croonaert has commented about young children who aren't going to be interested in anything but the 'real' thing. If obtaining even a small piece, say a few discarded bullets, allows future generations to remember and become interested in one of the bloodiest wars in human history, especially your own child/local school, couldn't it be seen as benefical? Considering your opening young minds into something they may not have experienced before will certainly make their day! But I suppose it depends how you view it, I say the relics are educational and large items should be left in place to allow a more comprehensive and enjoyable field walk. But now the majority have been sold on its only the imagination which can replace this loss. That is unless you've brought a metal detector....

Dave.