British snipers

[Guest Helberg]

The exploits of Commonwealth snipers like Billy Sing and Henry Norwest are well known, but did Britain produce any high-scoring marksmen? If so, are there any books or sites about them that you'd recommend?

Thanks in advance!

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

While I cannot provide an answer to your question I did want to mention that when the British took over the Somme front from the French the Germans felt that while the infantry was timid at first and the artillery fired haphazardly the men gave the British snipers a wide berth and feared them from the start. The infantry and artillery were soon to catch up within a few months.

Ralph

[David Blue]

I know he's quite well known, but I though readers may be interested in his story:

Henry Louie Norwest, (Canadian Native Indian)

Awarded the Military Medal (MM) and bar.

One of thes most famous Canadian snipers in the First World War was a Metis marksman known by the name of Henry Louis Norwest. Norwest was born in Fort Saskatchewan, Alberta, of French-Cree ancestry. In his nearly three years of service with the 50th Canadian Infantry Battalion, the lance-corporal achieved a sniping record of 115 fatal shots. The former ranch-hand and rodeo performer also merited the Military Medal and bar, making him one of roughly 830 members of the CEF to be awarded this double honour.

Henry Louie enlisted in the army in January 1915, and was subsequently discharged after three months, allegedly for 'Misconduct'. Eight months later he had re-enlisted as Henry Norwest.

Ultimately, Norwest proved to be an inspiration to his unit. A fellow soldier wrote of him:

"Our famous sniper no doubt understood better than most of us the cost of life and the price of death. Henry Norwest carried out his terrible duty superbly because he believed his special skill gave him no choice but to fulfil his indispensable mission. Our 50th (Battalion) sniper went about his work with passionate dedication and showed complete detachment from everything while he was in the line. ... Yet when we had the rare opportunity to see our comrade at close quarters, we found him pleasant and kindly, quite naturally one of us, and always an inspiration."

Sniping was a hazardous infantry role. Most snipers worked in pairs, with one partner shooting and the other observing - scanning the surroundings and reporting enemy movements. It is said Norwest possessed all the skills required of a sniper: excellent marksmanship, an ability to keep perfectly still for very long periods and superb camouflage techniques. Much of his time was spent in "No Man's Land", the dreaded area between opposing forces. As well, Norwest and his observer often slipped behind enemy lines.

The battalion's star marksman earned the Military Medal (MM) in 1917, at a peak on Vimy Ridge. The Canadian Corps, part of a massive Allied offensive, was tasked with capturing the Ridge. Although previous Allied attempts to take it had failed, the elaborately planned Canadian assault succeeded. Most of the Ridge was taken on the first day, April 9. Three days later, the two remaining enemy positions, including the Peak on Vimy Ridge, were taken.

According to his award citation, Norwest showed "great bravery, skill and initiative in sniping the enemy after the capture of the Peak on Vimy ridge. By his activity he saved a great number of our men's lives."

The following year, Norwest was awarded a bar to his Military Medal, (details and circumstances of which are not known at present). In August 1918, his bravery was again evident. During the Battle of Amiens, in France, Allied forces advanced 19 kilometres in three days.

For his part, Norwest destroyed several enemy machine-gun posts and achieved a sniping record that was a battalion high.

A week later, the 50th was moving into position for its next assignment when the sharpshooter held his final post. On August 18, three months before the war ended, Norwest and two others were searching for a nest of effective enemy snipers. A sniper's bullet hit the Metis marksman, killing him instantly. For the members of his battalion and countrymen, a genuine hero had been lost.

[Mark Hone]

There is a fascinating book on British sniping by former big-game hunter and tracker Major Hesketh-Pritchard which was republished recently. I'm not near my library at the moment but will post details later.

[Greenwoodman]

Hope you don't mind Mark, as its to hand as I sit at the computer -

Major H Hesketh-Pritchard DSO MC "Sniping in France: How the British Army won the Sniping War in the Trenches" (London: BCA, 1994).

[Greenwoodman]

Hope you don't mind Mark, as its to hand as I sit at the computer -

Major H Hesketh-Pritchard DSO MC "Sniping in France: How the British Army won the Sniping War in the Trenches" (London: BCA, 1994).

[182 CEF]

CPL. Francis (Peggy) Pegahmagabow MM and 2 Bars Was the highest scoring (confirmed) sniper of WW1 He was an Ojibwa Indian from Perry Sound Island Ontario Canada. He had 378 confirmed "Kills" during WW1 He was born in 1891 and died in 1952. He joined in 1914 and went overseas with the 1st Battn CEF. He was wounded twice during the War but lived a long life afterwards.

Dean

Whitby Ontario

[Guest Helberg]

Thank you all for your replies. Hesketh-Pritchard's book may be just what I'm looking for.

But if anyone should happen to see some list over the highest scoring British snipers of the war, please let me know. Considering the superb markmanship of the BEF in 1914, I'd be surprised if Britain didn't produce an ace or two.

[Guest Biplane pilot]

Here's a bio on "Peggy"

http://www.foxmeadowbooks.com/pegah.html

A short list of WW I aces from Snipercentral.com:

Francis Pegahmagabow W.W. I Canada 378

Billy Sing W.W. I Australia 150

Henry Norwest W.W. I Canada 115

Herbert W. McBride W.W. I Canada/U.S.A. 100+

Neville Methven W.W. I So. Africa 100

Johnson Paudash W.W. I Canada 88

Philip McDonald W.W. I Canada 70

P. Riel W.W. I Canada 30

It stands to reason there would've been several individuals between 378 and 150, though the actual figures are, of course, unknowable. I've never seen any scores for German snipers in WW I but in II they credited hits rather than kills--a very sensible policy. Sniper scores are likely somewhat more accurate than aerial combat claims, but optimism and propaganda are always in play.

[KAYJAY]

Hi Guys,

Sgt Sandy Macdonald of the 5th Battalion Seaforths was credited with a score of 97. He was a gamekeeper on a highland estate and was said to be deadly within a thousand yards.

They even wrote a little poem about him which goes.

Sniper Sandy's slaying Saxon soldiers,

And Saxon soldiers seldom show but Sandy slay's a few,

And every day the Boches put up little wooden crosses,

In the Cemetery for Saxon Soldiers sniper Sandy slew.

Sandy was killed in 1917 at Beamont Hamel.

Regards Ken.

[Guest Biplane pilot]

It'd be interesting to know some details of Sandy MacDonald's sniping. While 1,000 yd shots were feasible even before WW I, several key factors had to come together simultaneously: field of view (for over half a mile, that usually means elevation); rifle, ammo, optic, and of course repeated opportunity. If any Great War scopes had enough elevation adjustment for 1,000 yds I'm not aware of them, so additional holdover probably would have been required.

Thanks for the dandy Sandy poem!

[Guest TheThirdMan]

Sniping in France is an excellent book, and I'd certainly rate Hesketh-Pritchard as one of the best snipers, regardless of how many kills he had.

Plus, the guy founded SOS (School of Observation and Sniping) and passed the skill down to many others. Kudos to the bloke.

[Max]

Oddly I have just this minute been reading about a British sniper in the trenches opposite PETIT BOIS in August 1915 who hit a German who was cutting grass in front of their parapet (?!?!) and five men who came out to try to get him in.

Andy

[Myrtle]

In 1915 the Welsh Guards had about 30 snipers under the command of Lieut. J.J.P. Evans known as "Jimjack". It appears that amongst these snipers the best were Cpl. Bowles( wonderful eyesight) Pte Parker, an ex-gamekeeper, Sergt Bonar and Pte Tanner.

[Guest moose]

Dunno how relevant to the discusion this is but our family story on how my Great-Uncle was killed is because he was wounded and when the Germans overan the postion they shot him because he was a sniper. How they knew that I dunno because his brass crossed rifle badge was left behind in Blighty. It's at his sisters house now. Maybe he had a cloth badge in its place?

[Guest Biplane pilot]

Thank you for the info, Moose. Do you have the source of the report that he was shot because he was a sniper? If true, it certainly was not an isolated incident. German snipers caused such havoc in Normandy that Omar Bradley tacitly approved of summary executions for a period.

[Tim Birch]

In reality how could a sniper's score be acurately checked? He might register a hit, but even that could be subjective and he would have been unable to verify whether or not it was fatal. The enemy certainly weren't going to tell him - so how were these "scores" compiled?

Tim

[Guest moose]

Hiya Biplane Pilot, The source was his sister. They were told this at the time. By whom I don't know. She said it was a hospital that was over-run. More likely the Regt. aid post. In Ponsonby's history of the Gren. Gds. it states quite clearly that no wounded were allowed to fall into enemy hands. Would I be reading too much into this by thinking the were trying to surpress rumours. This was in the March 1918 offensive.

Years ago one Veteran of the same Bn. admitted they regularly shot captured snipers and vice-versa. Cheers , Moose.

[Marco]

To add some color to this topic:

Regards,

Marco

[Guest Biplane pilot]

In reality how could a sniper's score be acurately checked? He might register a hit, but even that could be subjective and he would have been unable to verify whether or not it was fatal. The enemy certainly weren't going to tell him - so how were these "scores" compiled?

Tim

Good question, seldom addressed. Fact is, you simply cannot "score and tape" the sniper's target as if he were a bullseye on a rifle range. That's why sniper scores should not be taken too literally, much like fighter pilot claims

Because most snipers worked with a spotter, presumably the observer could verify whether the intended victim was hit. But at best, that's what sniper scores involve: hits, not kills. To my knowledge only the Germans credited hits whereas apparently everyone else assumed a hit was a kill. However, from reading Hesketh-Pritchard and a couple of others, it seems that early in the war anybody who claimed a kill was taken at his word, with or without verification. Undoubtedly hundreds of "kills" were the product of more wishful thinking than marksmanship. Some early "snipers" had little idea how to zero a scope.

[Jock Bruce]

Hi Guys,

Sgt Sandy Macdonald of the 5th Battalion Seaforths was credited with a score of 97. He was a gamekeeper on a highland estate and was said to be deadly within a thousand yards.

They even wrote a little poem about him which goes.

Sniper Sandy's slaying Saxon soldiers,

I've just seen this thread, so apologies for picking up on an old posting

The verses about Sniper Sandy were written by Lt E A M'Kintosh of the 5th Seaforths to the tune of a popular comic song - one of several such parodies 'Tosh' produced to amuse the battalion.

The full version goes -

____________________

(Tune - Sister Susie's sewing shirts for soldiers)

Sandy Mac the sniper is a sniping from his loop-hole,

With a telescopic rifle he is looking for the Hun,

If he sees a sniper lurking, or a working party working,

At once he opens fire on them, and bags them every one.

And when you come in to our trench, by night-time or by day,

We take you to his loop-hole, and we point to him and say -

Sniper Sandy's slaying Saxon soldiers,

And Saxon soldiers seldom show but Sandy slays a few,

And every day the Bosches put up little wooden crosses,

In the cemetery for Saxon soldiers Sniper Sandy slew

Now in the German trenches there's a sniper they call Hermann,

A stout and stolid Saxon with a healthy growth of beard,

And Hermann with his rifle is the pride of every German,

Until our Sandy gets on him, and Hermann gets afeared,

For when he hears the bullets coming he slides down to the ground,

And tremblingly he gasps out to his comrades all around -

Sniper Sandy's slaying, etc ……….

The Seaforths got so proud of Sandy's prowess with a rifle,

The drew up a report on him and sent it to the Corps,

And ninety-seven was his bag, it doesn't seem a trifle -

But Sandy isn't certain that it isn't rather more,

And when Sir John French heard of it, he broke into a laugh,

And rubbed his hands and chuckled to the Chief of General Staff -

Sniper Sandy's slaying, etc ……….

_________________________________

711 Sgt Alexander M'Donald 1/5 Seaforth was killed in action at Beaumont-Hamel on 13 Nov 1916 and is buried in Mailly Wood Cemetery.

Lt Ewart Alan M'Kintosh MC was killed in action serving with 1/4 Seaforth at Cambrai on 21 Nov 1917 and is buried in Orival Wood Cemetery.

Jock

[jcebell]

Just a little more on the shooting of the sniper, my great grandfather passed on that when ever a German sniper was captured he was taken behind a local barn and shot. He was with the Lancashire Fusiliers in France 1916-1917 at the time,

The Bells

[Guest Biplane pilot]

Evidently Gen. Omar Bradley let it be known that nobody in 1st Army would be court-martialed for murdering captured snipers in Normandy. A sometime JAG officer mentioned a few years ago that some staff officers got nervous about the de facto policy, which was officially (if not actually) disavowed.

[Borden Battery]

Tpr. William Edward (Billy) Sing, DCM, Croix de Guerre

Trooper Billy Sing was an ace Australian sniper with Australian Fifth Light Horse Regiment who is credited with perhaps 200 Turkish kills. To the Anzacs in the trenches he was "The Assassin". The site provides a short history of his actions at Gallipoli including a recorded duel with a Turkish sniper. [CEF Study Group - Updated Aug 2010]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Sing