montbrehain Posted 3 February , 2007 Share Posted 3 February , 2007 The Lithgow is,nt a hooky ? It also has the blade darkened. She,s a right one . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 3 February , 2007 Share Posted 3 February , 2007 Regards plenty of "garden variety" Pattern '07 bayonets for around the 20 pound mark (plus postage): Buy it now US $44: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/BRITISH-ENFIELD-190...1QQcmdZViewItem Buy it now US $44.99: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/BRITISH-PATTERN-190...1QQcmdZViewItem Buy it now US $39.99 (no scabbard): http://cgi.ebay.com.au/British-1907-Bayone...1QQcmdZViewItem And I could go on ... Of course, these bayonets seem to be late or early post war era which have been refurbed inbetween the wars, but you might jag an intact early Great War example without a clearance hole - if you bought a lot of bayos sight unseen. I think the intact early Pattern 07s with straight cross piece and no clearance holes are the best value collectables ... there were actually fewer of them made than the hookies, and because they mainly saw heavy use, most were upgraded (if they weren't lost on the battlefield) and drilled with a clearance hole (of course, by stating this, I may have driven the prices through the roof ... but at least I have my little stash!). not quite is it?......20 quid plus 'Shipping to Australia , United Kingdom will be $23.98 each - additional ones $20.00 each' which is about £34. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 3 February , 2007 Share Posted 3 February , 2007 So tell me please where I can purchase a genuine decent 1907 bayonet complete, and in my grubby paws for £20. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve140968 Posted 3 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2007 Thanks guys . Heatseeker , what a super collection of bayonets you have . The example mounted on the rifle is superb !!! Excuse my ignorance but what exactly did the quillon do ? Also what was the clearance hole for ? Are there any makers that seem to be more collectable than others ? Many thanks once again , Steve . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve140968 Posted 3 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2007 So in a nutshell then what i'm looking for is pre 1916 without the clearence hole post 1916 with the clearance hole ! Can i assume then that not having the clearance hole drilled is a sign that the bayonet has NOT been upgraded / serviced post war ????? I'm now confusing myself ! Regards , Steve . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve140968 Posted 3 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2007 Hi , what are your opinions of this example ? Described as EDF 9 / 1914 , i can't make out most of the markings . i notice that it has the clearance hole which presumably means that it was upgraded / serviced post 1916 , cheers , Steve . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve140968 Posted 3 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2007 Also this one , cheers , Steve . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatseeker Posted 3 February , 2007 Share Posted 3 February , 2007 not quite is it?......20 quid plus 'Shipping to Australia , United Kingdom will be $23.98 each - additional ones $20.00 each' which is about £34. Mick That's just the "buy it now" items, which for "around 20 pounds (23.98, to be exact) will buy you a 1907 bayonet. You can also take a punt on an auction and maybe land one for less, plus postage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatseeker Posted 3 February , 2007 Share Posted 3 February , 2007 Hi , what are your opinions of this example ? Described as EDF 9 / 1914 , i can't make out most of the markings . i notice that it has the clearance hole which presumably means that it was upgraded / serviced post 1916 , cheers , Steve . That's an Enfield September 1914 manufacture, which according to the stamp on the other side of the blade was re-built in 1925, when it would hve been re-blued, and had the clearance hole drilled. Looks like a nice early Great War scabbard with it (with tear drop stud and original brown leather). In the past I have bought bayonets for their scabbards, matched them with a later scabbard I have on an earlier bayonet and re-sold them. To burden you with more useless information, the scabbards started the Great War with a "tear drop" stud and later production ny a multitude of contractors was simplified with a found stud and other detail differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatseeker Posted 3 February , 2007 Share Posted 3 February , 2007 Also this one , cheers , Steve . That's a well-worn December 1914 Sanderson which by the presence of the clearance hole, indicates it was re-furbed post 1916, and most probably after the war ... nothing special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatseeker Posted 3 February , 2007 Share Posted 3 February , 2007 So in a nutshell then what i'm looking for is pre 1916 without the clearence hole post 1916 with the clearance hole ! Can i assume then that not having the clearance hole drilled is a sign that the bayonet has NOT been upgraded / serviced post war ????? I'm now confusing myself ! The example mounted on the rifle is superb !!! Excuse my ignorance but what exactly did the quillon do ? Also what was the clearance hole for ? Are there any makers that seem to be more collectable than others ? Regards , Steve . The quillon was intended to snare fitting on your opponent's rifle so you could wrest it from their grasp, however, in the confnes of the trenches they were found to snag on equipment. Some were removed at unit level by decree, others as a matter of course during factory re-builds. Yes, the lack of a clearance hole in the pommel of a British (Ishapore and Lithgow bayonets did not have clearance holes until the 1920s) pre-1916 bayonet is generally very good start in a quest for a intact Great War era bayonet, but it is not unknown for there to be a post-war inspection date on the opposite side of the base of the blade to the manufacturer and manufacture dates stamps. The clearance hole was a means for any debris that accumulated in the slot to escape when the bayonet was fitted ... if ever you try to fit a bayonet without a clearance hole with a slot full of grease, the hydraulic effect makes it nigh on impossible, whereas on a later example the grease just oozes out of the clearance hole. A unmolested unit marking (they were generally defaced or polished off during refurb) on the pommel or the hilt is also a sure sign you have a veteran ... to decipher these, go to this excellent website: http://www.regiments.org/regiments/abbrev.htm Another indication is the condition and position of the screws ... soldiers were not allowed to molest them, and the heads should be unmarked with the slots vertical when the bayonet is viewed horizontal. If the screws are blemished and the slots awry, it has most probably been tampered with ... I have even encountered bayonets with the screw heads on the wrong side, which sets off alarm bells. You are most likely to find an intact 1918 manufacture, which were most likely to not have seen heavy service, and many of which went straight to storage ... but these obviously don't have much history to them. Regards manufacturers, there was Enfield, Wilkinson, Mole, Sanderson, Chapman, Remington (all 1917) and Vickers (the rarest of the lot and recognisable by their oversized clearance hole ... only 10,000 made in 1917). I never consider the manufacturer when on the lurk for a new acquisition ... what I am looking for is originality first, and a rarer manufacturer's a bonus. As it turns out, all of my British bayonets are Enfields, but they were all chosen on the basis of originality, so this is a coincidence. Mole is a relatively rare maker, but give me an intact, relatively common, Wilkinson to a post-war re-built rarer Mole with Arabic markings on the hilt (few of these getting around, my guess is ex-Iraqi army) anyday. Regards the bayonet that's mounted on the rifle (an intact 1913 BSA No1 MkIII issued to the 1/5th Gurkha in April 1914 and captured at Gallipoli ... but that's another story), it's a 1913 Enfield without clearance hole and a 1915 inspection mark (when the quillon was almost certainly lopped) that came to me as a bare blade. It if was a 1917 bayo re-built in 1935, I wouldn't have bothered with it, but it did deserve a sympathetic (no alteration of the original bits) restoration. Just for interest's sake, here's a couple of snaps of it "in the raw" (you should NEVER take the grips off a 1907 bayonet ... without the correct armourer's screw driver you'll bu**er the screw heads and gouge the timber, which will probably be damaged further when you try and prise them off). Note the "15" inspection stamp in the first photo ... yes, the bayonet's no longer in it's original configuration, but it was all done in the Great War era. Also note the original "8 15" inspector's stamp under the handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatseeker Posted 4 February , 2007 Share Posted 4 February , 2007 Regards the bayonet that's mounted on the rifle (an intact 1913 BSA No1 MkIII issued to the 1/5th Gurkha in April 1914 and captured at Gallipoli ... but that's another story), it's a 1913 Enfield without clearance hole and a 1915 inspection mark (when the quillon was almost certainly lopped) that came to me as a bare blade. I'll say right here, I am against "tarting up" any intact Great War relics, but this was more of a rescue mission. I obtained some walnut grips and screws from Evans Obsolete Screws at: http://www.customscrewsandmore.com/ (a thorough gentleman, deal with confidence). There were plently of unissued Australian grips and screws getting about down here for negligable prices, but coachwood would not be correct - particularly with 1944 dates! - and the screws were parkerised, and did not exhibt the degree of polishing found on the earlier bayonets. It was actually an interesting project because the grips were way oversized (the blank bayonets were hand linished, so individual fitting was required), and I needed to rat junk boxes at gun shows to find parts with similar wear, but the end result got the old warhorse looking the part: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatseeker Posted 4 February , 2007 Share Posted 4 February , 2007 So there's another option for you ... don't neglect the junk stores (this bare blade cost me $5). From a collectable point of view, this bayonet is flawed, but the fitting of the grips and release was the lesser of the evils and none of the remaining original bits were molested in anyway: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatseeker Posted 4 February , 2007 Share Posted 4 February , 2007 The Lithgow is,nt a hooky ? It also has the blade darkened. She,s a right one . A unmolested Lithgow hooky should have a highly polished silver blade and be finished in a fine quality deep gloss bluing ... later in the war (when the quillons were ordered removed) the blades were sandblasted or blued, and after the war many were re-polished. To my knowledge, and I don't profress to be a guru on all things bayonets, but I've done a bit of research, Australia only made hooked quillon bayonets in 1914-15 (I believe the Lithgow Small Arms Factory archives I have extensively consulted would be correct in stating this). You've either got an extremely rare (indeed, I believe non existent) 1916 Lithgow hooky, or you've been lumbered with one of your mate's fakes. I could confirm it with a close up of the quillon ... there are subtle differences between Australian and Brit examples. I do believe a batch of replicas were made in the 1980s for the Peter Weir film Gallipoli, and these turn up from time-to-time. By 1916 the Australian were very much part of the mainstream British Army, which had done away with the quillons late in 1913 and Lithgow modified their bayonet manufacturing to conform. All this is not an attempt to start an argument, I am merely relaying my knowledge, which could be flawed. That's an intact 1915 Lithgow in the centre: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montbrehain Posted 4 February , 2007 Share Posted 4 February , 2007 How many more times do I have to say it ??? the lithgow is NOT A HOOKY !!! look at the pics ? Read the text ? I never claimed it was a Quillion bayonet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve140968 Posted 4 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 4 February , 2007 Thanks heatseeker , what an amazing amount of knowledge you have on the subject ! I have found this very fascinating and it has given me a much better idea of what to look for , thanks , Steve . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatseeker Posted 4 February , 2007 Share Posted 4 February , 2007 How many more times do I have to say it ??? the lithgow is NOT A HOOKY !!! look at the pics ? Read the text ? I never claimed it was a Quillion bayonet. Sorry, couldn't quite work out what "The Lithgow is,nt a hooky ? It also has the blade darkened. She,s a right one" meant. I would love an intact 1916 Lithgow for the collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatseeker Posted 4 February , 2007 Share Posted 4 February , 2007 Thanks heatseeker , what an amazing amount of knowledge you have on the subject ! I have found this very fascinating and it has given me a much better idea of what to look for , thanks , Steve . No problems mate ... information not shared is information wasted. A lot of collectors starting out accumulate items with Great War manufacturing dates but don't realise that if the item was refurbished in 1935, the piece would be more appropriate for a World War II collection. Don't hesitate to drop a line if you have any other questions (probably best to PM me so I don't inflict more of my gibberish on other members of this esteemed forum). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveBrigg Posted 5 February , 2007 Share Posted 5 February , 2007 (probably best to PM me so I don't inflict more of my gibberish on other members of this esteemed forum). Please keep your questions public. I don't have a bayonet to my name (two small children with an uncanny knack of finding things they shouldn't) but it's been great to read and learn. I still don't know why a hole was added - what purpose did it serve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 11 February , 2007 Share Posted 11 February , 2007 Regards manufacturers, there was Enfield, Wilkinson, Mole, Sanderson, Chapman, Remington (all 1917) and Vickers (the rarest of the lot and recognisable by their oversized clearance hole ... only 10,000 made in 1917). Hi Heatseeker, You seem to know your 1907's, however, in reference to the pattern 1907 = Remington (USA); No 1907's were made by Remington (USA) in 1917.... they were only manufactured from April to December 1915, with a total production run of approx 100,000. Both the USA manufacturers of Winchester and Remington made Pattern 1913's from early 1915 to mid 1917, then turned over production to the Pattern 1917's from mid 1917 to the end of 1918. Incidentally, some Remington Pattern 1917's can be aquired with the pattern stamp of - 1918- instead of 1917. Seph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 11 February , 2007 Share Posted 11 February , 2007 Please keep your questions public. I don't have a bayonet to my name (two small children with an uncanny knack of finding things they shouldn't) but it's been great to read and learn. I still don't know why a hole was added - what purpose did it serve? Hello Dave, The reason a 'Clearance Hole' was added, was to ease the removal of dirt from the bayonet lugg recess. Due to the constant filthy conditions that the soldier found himself in during his stint in the trenches, dirt would mount up, clogg the bayonet lugg recess and make it difficult to affix the bayonet to the SMLE. So, the need arose to help with the evacuation of the built up dirt.. hense, the -clearence hole. Hope that's cleared up your queary! Seph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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