Great War Fiction: Yea or Nay?

[truthergw]

As for the second part of your query,yes I consider the source to be reliable,Leon Wolff has been shown to be a very reliable author,the Preface having been written by Lyn Macdonald.

I knew I had seen it but couldn't place it. I have the Penguin edition with intro by JFC Fuller. Very critical of Haig and ascribes to himself the first idea of Cambrai.

L Wolff is not much quoted these days. Very powerful writer but he seems to have too readily quoted gossip as fact. As far as the intelligence reports about the state of the German prisoners, they seem to be borne out by the German High Command's opinion of their new drafts.

I have been slow to answer this post( I skimmed Wolff's book) and if I may just comment on you describing Haig's despatches etc. as fiction. I believe there is a serious difference between writing fiction and falsifying a report. The only writer that I have personally read, who accused Haig of deliberately falsifying his accounts in his diary was D. Winter in " Haig: A Reappraisal". He is not supported in this claim as far as I know by any of the other ' mainstream writers'. Haig has been acquitted of this charge by Sheffield & Bourne in " Douglas Haig, War Diaries and Letters". One may or may not agree with all of Haig's conclusions and he has often been accused of over-optimism but I do not think you could hope to sustain a charge that he deliberately falsified his reports.

[withcall]

Sword Of Honour trilogy. An awesome read. Three books, can't remember the right order, Men At Arms, Officers And Gentlemen, Unconditional Surrender.

Central character Guy Crouchback, outbreak of war finds him living in family villa in Italy. Past conscription age, he returns to England, and using family connections, secures commission in the Halberdiers (a posh regiment - cf HAC?) Trains with much younger men, gains nickname 'Uncle'. Wonderful descriptions of wartime London, bleak south coast training bases, wild commando training on remote Scottish island. Crouchback and friend - a fake ex-colonial called Apthorpe get posted to Egypt - Apthorpe dies after short illness, aided by Guy's innocent present of bottle of Scotch. Guy involved with maverick Brigadier Ritchie Hook, takes part in a bungled raid on N. African coast, takes blame for failure. After being reconciled with whorey ex-wife, Guy involved in evacuation of Crete, intelligence work in Yugoslavia. Wife killed in London air-raid. Book ends post war with Guy still in one piece, considered to have a had a 'good war'

That description masks what, in my opinion, is the greatest piece of English writing of the second half of the 20th century. It's very, very funny - sometimes cruelly funny (Waugh must have been a complete s**t, by all accounts) but on occasions it's desperately poignant, and very perceptive about people and their strengths and weaknesses. There's a host of memorable characters; I first read it when I was in the sixth form, and I try to re-read it every two or three years or so. It's a masterpiece.

Regarding the Daniel Craig TV version, it was barely passable, being condensed into a really short time frame. There was a much better series in the late 60s with Edward Woodward as Crouchback, and the late, great Ronald Fraser as Apthorpe. I expect the BBC have lost the film, along with so much else of quality Incidentally, EW (Callan) is still going strong - I'm sure he was in 'Five Days' on TV last week

[SMG65]

The book to put you completely off Great War fiction is 'The Poppy Factory' by William Fairchild.

A good idea but complete drivel.

Sean

[Paul Hederer]

Phil,

Getting back to your question about Great War fiction, though not knowing the work you mention (though knowing more now!) I think the common thread of any great fiction, from "The Brothers Karamazov," to "Education before Verdun," is its examination of human character in diverse situations.

I think the trap many fiction writers fall into is trying to weave their characters into historical episodes, perhaps sprinkling in some odd bits of historical trivia.

I often think of the Remarques, "All Quiet..." His descriptions are simple yet full of power. When he and his fellow soldier Kat discover a corpse hanging in a tree, Paul says, "Great guns did that." I think a writer of lesser ability might be tempted to say something like, "That must have been a 210mm mortar," just as an example.

This is true of any fiction, not just the Great War genre. It isn't necessary to hit the reader over the head with detail like cap badges, it should be the character's thoughts, and emotions, as well as his surroundings that catch and hold our interest.

Of course, the basic plot details must be correct, if contained within a certain timeframe. If your hero goes to the Great War in 1913 it will be a bit confusing.

"August 1914," by Alexander Solzhenitsyn would be an example of Great war fiction I would hold up as to why war related fiction is well worth reading. The book is a fascinating treatment of the initial battles in the East. There's certainly not a lot of Russian first hand accounts floating around, and those written by the Generals are full of agenda for failed battles. This book, written by a Russian, about Russians, at least gives some insight into what it must have been like to have served in the Russian Army during the disastrous invasion of East Prussia. Solzhenitsyn is also a writer of renowned ability, so I am in good hands as he tells his story.

Sure we can all cite examples of bad war fiction and condemn the whole lot, but as has been pointed out already, the same can just as easily be done for non-fiction. There is a lot of bad non-fiction out there dealing with the war--quickly researched, badly researched, using only secondary sources, badly written, poorly organised, lack of new material, representing gossip as fact, it's easy to go on.

Selecting what you're reading is no different than selecting music. Do you often go to the music store and just grab a CD off the shelves because of the cover? Would you buy a CD just because it was jazz? Would you be as willing to buy a CD with your local school orchestra playing Brahms as opposed to one with the Berlin philharmonic? Would you condemn all classical music as a waste of time because of the highschool orchestra's performance of Brhams? I would be willing to wager that most people put a a lot more thought into the music they buy than into the books they buy, be it fiction or non-fiction.

If one chooses to not read non-fiction that is a personal choice. If one drives to work every day listening to BBC4, that is also a personal choice--and more power to you (I'm one of those people, by the way.) But to say, "I never listen to music because I know there is some bad music out there," sounds a bit silly doesn't it? It's easy to make the connection to the fiction and non-fiction discussion.

Paul

[spike10764]

In respect of the original question a big YEAH.

I love reading and fiction is a apart of my Great War reading as much as non fiction. Just as you may feel a non fiction author may be writing from a perspective they believe to be true, but you may think is cobblers, shouldn't stop you reading it. Then a fiction book can be a top quality story without necessarily being super accurate with detail, or pants, but accurate historically. A good book is a good book, although goodness may be in the eye of the reader and a healthy dose of scepticism does no harm when reading any book....

[PhilB]

Sword Of Honour trilogy. An awesome read. Three books, can't remember the right order, Men At Arms, Officers And Gentlemen, Unconditional Surrender.

One should add that Waugh did serve in WW2. He was also a superb writer. so he ticks all the boxes. Phil B

[MartinWills]

This deep into the thread I have to confess I do read Great War fiction.

I tend to take the view that it is fiction, so it does not have to be historically accurate (eg I will not complain about tin hats in late 1915) but for me to engage the tale has to be plausible. It also has to be entertaining.

Consider Ben Elton's First Casualty. It is entertaining in places (not always in the right way ...). You might find also that it is engaging in places (what on earth will happen next.....) but at the end of the day it's not plausible, some of the relationships, contacts etc just don't seem right. Now. If you think that comment comes from someone steeped in the war, I can tell you that as well as being my view it it also that of a work colleague who knows relatively little about the war.

Looking at the "so-called" faction or disguised "biography" it usually succeeds because it is plausible, so I would probably say that this is the principle factor that governs whether fiction (or faction) is enjoyable or not. It does not need to be historically accurate, though this can be hard for some historians to accept. Just remember it is fiction (of a sort).

I can think of two books in particular I have read over the last year. Loretta Proctor's "The Long Shadow" is set against the background of the Balkans and Salonika and spins a nice tale - I would commend it to you. The second (I can't remember the title or author) was a thriller that won an award 20 or more years ago but was reprinted a few years back and runs a tale of political intrigue against a story of a decimated unit, it's veterans and warfare by mining. If I turn it out I will post the details. All I can say is that it was engaging and plausible from beginning to end - but fiction throughout.

One may also consider a third title, best known here as "Desmond's Blog" which acquired a devoted following. It was plausible; engaging, entertaining and fiction (which is why I am not frightened of cake knives). Desmond's devoted pupil Will is following in the same footsteps - fiction but enjoyable ......

[withcall]

I'm really enjoying the way this thread is going - the informed concensus seems to be that if a book is well written, then it's worth reading, no matter what. Two other novels which might repay a read - sadly, they're both pretty old, and may be OoP.

Firstly, a book by Anthony Price. He wrote a whole series of novels in the 1970s featuring a couple of military experts - Dr Audley and Colonel Butler - who become involved in various bits of skulduggery. This one, Other Paths To Glory concerns a plot by an international terror group to destroy a summit of world leaders which is being held in a converted French farmhouse. This farmhouse is situated on some high ground on the site of a bitterly fought-over farmhouse...on the heights above the Ancre.....loads of tunnels and passageways......is this ringing any bells yet..? Well, I guess it has to be M****t F**m, doesn't it! Not a bad book, and there was a TV series featuring the two experts, and one of them was played by either Terence Stamp or David Hemmings - never could tell which was which.

Next, a book by Reginald Hill - author of the Dalziel and Pascoe books. This was set in the GW and concerned a group of deserters who lived a desperate existence in tunnels and dugouts in No-Man's-Land. They survived by plundering and robbing those both dead and alive. The main characters weren't totallu unsympathetic, as they had all been 'forced' into desertion by various kinds of unjust treatment. I can't for the life of me remember the name of the book, but I am sure he has a website. Also, one of his Dalziel and Pascoe books had GW overtones, and concerned, if memory serves, Pascoe's grandfather and his war record.

[MartinWills]

Thanks for the reminder - it was Other Paths of Glory - I think it was a late 90's reprint in some sort of "classics of the genre" reprint". It is well worth trying to track a cheap copy - it is a good read. I have to confess I wondered if it had, in part, filtered into Desmond's blog with our hero cast in the role of Terry Reeves, the researcher.

[PBI]

Regarding Fact and Fiction...I find personally written Great War Fiction total rubbish..if you were not there at the Time,you could certainly never attempt to recreate the Atmosphere,conditions,sights,sounds,smells,and all the associated emotions,that would have accompanied Great War Combat conditions.Personally i think some of the Fiction Books on sale in the Flanders Fields Museum are insulting to the Memory of the men of all sides that fought and died in the Ypres area,in that they romanticise war and attempt to deify the Brits whilst making out the germans to be the Bogeymen,i could name one Book in particular,but no doubt my post would be pulled..I could rant on for Ages,but it would be pointless..one mans Meat and all that.My pet hates of Great War Fiction Books are,as follows.

1) The Regenaration Triology.

2) All Quiet on the Western Front.

3) The First Casualty.

4) Birdsong.

I have most probably stepped on a few peoples Toes..but thats Life.If you havent walked the walk,you cannot talk the talk.

[Paul Hederer]

Regarding Fact and Fiction...I find personally written Great War Fiction total rubbish..if you were not there at the Time,you could certainly never attempt to recreate the Atmosphere,conditions,sights,sounds,smells,and all the associated emotions,that would have accompanied Great War Combat conditions.Personally i think some of the Fiction Books on sale in the Flanders Fields Museum are insulting to the Memory of the men of all sides that fought and died in the Ypres area,in that they romanticise war and attempt to deify the Brits whilst making out the germans to be the Bogeymen,i could name one Book in particular,but no doubt my post would be pulled..I could rant on for Ages,but it would be pointless..one mans Meat and all that.My pet hates of Great War Fiction Books are,as follows.

1) The Regenaration Triology.

2) All Quiet on the Western Front.

3) The First Casualty.

4) Birdsong.

I have most probably stepped on a few peoples Toes..but thats Life.If you havent walked the walk,you cannot talk the talk.

"Regarding Fact and Fiction...I find personally written Great War Fiction total rubbish.."

Wow, good to know you've come to the discussion with an open mind

"if you were not there at the Time,you could certainly never attempt to recreate the Atmosphere,conditions,sights,sounds,smells,and all the associated emotions,that would have accompanied Great War Combat conditions"

Exactly how would you know what those were? Were you there?

"If you havent walked the walk,you cannot talk the talk. "

Once again, "August 1914," by Alexander Solzhenitsyn.

In addition, I know it's not First World War, but the example bears repeating--Stephen Crane, "The Red Badge of Courage." Very young man, no wartime experience, the fictional account of the Civil War.

"I could rant on for Ages,but it would be pointless"

Why are you ranting at all? Why not discuss. Words like "hate," tend to turn people off.

"My pet hates of Great War Fiction Books are,as follows...2) All Quiet on the Western Front."

For a guy who hates First War fiction, you've read enough of it. I am assuming you've read all the books you've listed?

Ok, here's some non-fiction for you--"The Holocaust: From a Survivor of Verdun," Wilhelm Hermanns. If you read it you'd be struck by how similiar his experiences are to those of the soldiers in Remarque's book. Then again, I'm not sure what your problem is with the book, as you don't elaborate.

Paul

[PBI]

1) I have read these Books,not all the Way through though,as i tired of them,found them inaccurate,and truly not to my liking.

2) I didnt realise Pat Barker,Ben Elton,and Sebastian Faulkes had served on the Western Front.

3) Red Badge of Courage- How can it be the definitive Book on the Soldier experience in the American Civil War,if it is Fiction and not a True account ?..are there any surviving accounts from Civil War Veterans ??.

5) Remarque was not all He made Himself out to be,i believe that He was exposed at some point as having somewhat embellished His Military Service,so in my eyes that would tend to make the accuracy of the contents of His Book Suspect to say the least.

6) Regarding being there,i own enough Books written by Soldiers who were there to Be able to tell the Difference between Books written by those who were not.The Superlative Book which captures the Soldiers Life on the Western Front Surely has to be "OF THOSE WE LOVED" By I.L.Read.

LoL

[Ozzie]

PBI,

Imagination can take you to places you have never been.

If you have a good imagination, you can taste the blood, smell the cordite and shiver in the cold.

Maybe some people have more of a feeling for these things than others.

If fiction can make you shudder with the horror of war, feel sick to your stomach with the description of the putrid smell of maggot ridden corpes in your trench, under your feet, and squelching with every movement you make, isn't this a good way to understand what they went through.

AS WELL AS, the soldier's own diaries and letters.

When you put it all together, and you can feel as though you were as hot, and hungry and tired and pi*sed off and sore and whatever else these soldiers were, and you can get an inkling of what those men went through, then the fiction has done its job.

If you read fiction only to poke holes in it, you will not get the benefits.

Frederick Manning was there. He wrote a fictional account.

It is a brilliant story.

Cheers

Kim

[PBI]

Exactly what i mean,Manning WAS THERE.How can People who have never experienced Battle conditions,even begin to understand what Cordite smells like,not to mention the taste of Blood,and the Fear and adrenalin rush of Combat.

[Guest mruk]

Fiction is more than adequate as a description of war but is no substitute for actual experience, and even when those experiences are woven into the text, the meaning inevitably loses some of its potency.

Cheers,

Dave

[Paul Hederer]

Exactly what i mean,Manning WAS THERE.How can People who have never experienced Battle conditions,even begin to understand what Cordite smells like,not to mention the taste of Blood,and the Fear and adrenalin rush of Combat.

Sorry, but that is a very sad and limited view of the power of literature. Not everyone experiences combat in the same fashion, nor is everyone's combat experience the same...so I'm not sure your codified method for "identifying," the real thing from what you've read is a very convincing argument.

As for Crane and all the rest you can do some research on-line. It'll save me cutting and pasting it for you.

Paul

[PBI]

Paul what i am trying to get across,is that no matter how much a Writer attempts to describe smells of rotting flesh and cordite,his or hers words can not convey the reality of that smell,i accept that there are many experiences of Combat and stories to be told.But why read Fiction when there is a mass of first hand accounts,that fuels the imagination more than adequately,most are succinct and to the point,without the need to get lost in a long overblown narratives, EG Barker and Faulkes.

[Guest mruk]

The accuracy of the source is paramount, and not some convoluted and spun-out narrative of what may or may not have been said at the time. It's alright as a literary and fictional device, but helps no one when it comes to understanding the reality of the situation. I quite like 'The Loss of Eden' trilogy by John Masters, though it's no more historically accurate than reading Catherine Cookson, other than each are set within a particular period. Be wary of such fictions, but nethertheless enjoy.

Regards,

Dave

[Alan Tucker]

Using PBI's 'they were not there so not entitled to write about it test' he must logically extend his critique to contemporary historians of the Great War who were also not there!

Using the same argument Picasso was not entitled to paint 'Guernica' because he wasn't there!

[Guest mruk]

I think the difference is Alan, that most reputable historians quote their sources and authors of historical fiction do not--even when trained in the discipline of history and writing the past itself. It's a fundamental difference, but one which needs to be distinguished. I like the Picasso analogy, though is it not enough to say that he was a witness to contemporary events and thus qualified to commentate?

Cheers,

Dave

[withcall]

Using PBI's criteria about what validates fiction, imagine these rejection letters from publishers:

Dear Mr Dickens,

How you can possibly empathise with a young boy cast into an orphanage, and then taken up by a gang of East End thieves, I cannot imagine. I return your manuscript.

Dear Mr Hardy,

I am returning your manuscript 'Tess of the d'Urbervilles. How can you possibly convince an audience that you are an attractive twenty two year old girl who has been ravished by a country squire, married and separated from a curate, and then hanged for murdering your original ravisher? Really, sir, it just won't do.

Dear Mr Orwell,

I suggest you try your manuscript at a comic book publisher - when I last looked at the calendar, 1984 hasn't even happened yet. Have you been drinking?

Dear Mr Graves,

Your attempt to convince the British book-reading publisher that you are a lame, stammering Roman Emperor called Claudius is, frankly, pathetic. Please stick to events of which you have first-hand experience.

Dear Mr Golding,

I took the liberty of checking your bographical details in 'Who's Who' The attempt by a forty year old man to pass himself off as an eleven year old boy stranded on a desert island with a bunch of school friends, and then resorting to such cruelty and brutality is, I regret, disturbing. I have passed on your manuscript of 'Lord of the Flies'to the Metroplitan Police.

Sorry to be flippant, but such a strange view of what fiction is all about needs challenging.

[Jim Clay]

Sorry to be flippant, but such a strange view of what fiction is all about needs challenging.

Flippant, maybe; pertinent and absolutely spot on, definitely.

I do think you and Paul are fighting a losing battle though. I don't know if there is any fiction which would pass PBI's criteria! (And I seem to recall that PBI has said just this in previous discussions).

Novels? They'll never catch on, you know.

Jim

[PhilB]

Yes, I wonder how Patrick O`Brien, David Donachie, Bernard Cornwell etc ever managed? Phil B

[Kate Wills]

Dear Emily Bronte,

I loved Wuthering Heights. I don't know anything about you, but I feel your are intimately aquainted with the people and landscapes of the Yorkshire Moors. You are also a born storyteller. Please keep clear of anything catching, because talent like yours is a national treasure, and could do boundless good for the economy of West Yorkshire.

Yours

A fan

[Guest mruk]

There's no denying that a blur exists between what constitutes fact and that considered fiction, with the line between that of writer and historian being increasingly hard to define, but some on the forum are in danger of confusing both and accrediting a quality to fiction that it doesn't necessarily deserve. There's nothing new in this. Take 'Ivanhoe' or 'Robin Hood', for instance, and ask yourselves whether both are representative of the middle ages, or the product of a literary imagination that has since come to be seen as speaking for the period itself. I would suggest the latter, and in much the same way that some see the Napoleonic or Great War through the eyes of Bernard Cornwell or Ben Elton-Richard Curtis. It's a literary construct no matter how well intended the search for objectivity. A literary drama re-enacted, no more no less.

Cheers,

Dave