withcall Posted 26 January , 2007 Share Posted 26 January , 2007 Did you think 'Covenant With Death' was unconvincing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 26 January , 2007 Share Posted 26 January , 2007 Sorry, Withcall, it`s so long since I read that (30 years?) I really can`t remember. I look forward to a book about the interplay and stresses in the officers` and sergeants` messes of a battalion at war. They must have been really atmospheric places. Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 26 January , 2007 Share Posted 26 January , 2007 If you follow this idea through to the bitter nd, then a universally regarded masterpiece like Britten's 'War Requiem' becomes invalidated because the words were written by Wilfred Owen, who was there, but set to music by a composer who wasn't. How so? Music is an abstract art, even when its inspiration is subjective. Britten created a graphic soundscape which evokes thoughts and images in individual listeners' minds. A good writer will do this too, of course, but the reader may muddle fiction, which they assume to be well-researched and accurate, with fact. I can, for example, learn much from Dickens about the general social conditions that prevailed in Victorian Britain. I do not turn to Dickens to elucidate me on the French Revolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montbrehain Posted 26 January , 2007 Share Posted 26 January , 2007 Delta , had to read your post twice there !!! had me worried . Ben Eltons "First Casualty" Is without doubt the Biggest load of cliched c*** I have ever had the misfortune to start to read. My wife got it for me for xmas .. within no time a poetry spouting officer was buggering his Subaltern !!!! need I say more. And Elton still has the nerve to call hisself a serious student of the "Great War" ? No doubt before kicking his football in to No Mans Land ?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
withcall Posted 26 January , 2007 Share Posted 26 January , 2007 I don't see how music being abstract affects the validity of what I was saying. We're still talking about what validates the imagination. Is it the quality of that imagination, or some kind of Masonic membership fee only available to those who were there? I have some original diaries written by a local man who served in the war. As prime source material, they're fascinating, and mostly accurate as far as I can make out by cross-referencing with unit diaries. But as literature, they score room temperature. That's not a problem, as I know what the intention of the writer was. Why can't that be turned on its head so we can say of a book, 'As accurate historical narrative it's a non-starter but, hey, it's a damn good read' ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montbrehain Posted 26 January , 2007 Share Posted 26 January , 2007 Sorry bout that but what im saying is there was no imagination in Eltons book ? I must admit after the episode I mention I couldnt read anymore because I couldnt get my head out of the toilet ! Shame on you Ben Elton. Black Adder was cliched , but it turned more people on to the "Great War" than any programme I could think of ? Now for original and researched (War underground ??) try "Birdsong" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 26 January , 2007 Share Posted 26 January , 2007 Why can't that be turned on its head so we can say of a book, 'As accurate historical narrative it's a non-starter but, hey, it's a damn good read' ? I don't say that you can't. I say it, like so much else in life, is a matter of preference; and my preference is generally for fact, such as your diaries, above an embroidered version in which I would not know where the diarist's reality ended and your fiction began - but then I read to learn about the Great War. Entertainment value is a desirable bonus, but often a secondary consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
withcall Posted 26 January , 2007 Share Posted 26 January , 2007 This all boils down to personal taste in the end, doesn't it? The Ben Elton book has to have one of the most bizarre plots ever foisted on the reading public. Did I dream it, or was there a scene where the main man shins up a tree to look into his house so he can see his wife, who believes him to be dead? There was 'out-of-context' sex, where the main man s***s the ambulance driver (why?) and some strange plot twist where he gets himself beaten up by the Fenians so he can have 'prison cred' Oh dear, perhaps I imagined all this. Perhaps this proves my point in that I don't recall reading it and thinking,'hmmm..he's historically inaccurate here - cap badge at the wrong angle..' but I do remember thinking,' You cannot be serious...this is a **** book.' Ben was a great comedian, and a great contributor to Blackadder scripts, but as a novelist....the jury's not only out, but hasn't been seen for several months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 26 January , 2007 Share Posted 26 January , 2007 WITHCALL: I don't understand all of your references and I fear that I am not quite getting your points. I can , however, have a stab at answering your final question. A really good read for you might leave me cold or annoy me intensely. This does not affect its value as literature. Nor does it allow me to say " this is a bad book". de gustibus... On the other hand, it is possible to give a reasonably objective criticism of a factual book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
withcall Posted 26 January , 2007 Share Posted 26 January , 2007 TRUTHERRGW - The problem's mutual, but in my case it's probably down to the final bottle of cheap red picked up on my last trip to F&F. It's a wonderful signal - last bottle of LeClerc special offer red wine=time to go on internet to book next trip. Am enjoying the discussion, but coherence is vanishing fast. Will resume tomorrow - sleep well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montbrehain Posted 26 January , 2007 Share Posted 26 January , 2007 haha Cote de rhone , Corbier, hic etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Barker Posted 26 January , 2007 Share Posted 26 January , 2007 Just read the first couple of pages of this thread and with Kate talking about historical anachronisms earlier I thought I'd mention my favourite....the inclusion of a Great war memorial in many of the shots in Carry on Dick! I love the way that no-one cares that it's there - characters stand next to it, horses pass by....... carry on at its best. You never noticed? Shame on you!! Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trin1054 Posted 26 January , 2007 Share Posted 26 January , 2007 Hi Augustine, I would definitely place my self in the 'yea' camp. I was most impressed by the Regeneration trilogy (slightly shocked to hear it described as 'trash' earlier) and also Roddy Doyle's 'A Star Called Henry' (not strictly a Great War novel, but built around Irish Republicanism in the war years). I like to think that authors as good as Barker and Doyle can often 'take us there' much more effectively than many non-fiction books. It's not all about historical accuracy - books such as these can hint at the mood, atmosphere and tensions of a particular time that we may not have thought of ourselves. Cheers, Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hederer Posted 27 January , 2007 Share Posted 27 January , 2007 QUOTE (Phil_B @ Jan 26 2007, 08:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I haven`t found a non-veteran yet who could write convincing WW1 fiction. As soon as I see reference to the Loamshire regiment, my eyes tend to glaze! I think it will be done, though, just as Cornwell manages it for the Napoleonic era (and the Dark Ages) and O`Brien for the times of Nelson. And it may well be a forum member who pulls it off! Phil B Phil, I think you make a good point--for a number of reasons. I think great fiction doesn't lean on such details. I'm thinking of the likes of Solzhenitsyn, Pasternak, Hemingway, Remarque, Zweig, or Roman. I'm talking the big-league here--their works are so powerful and explore imporant aspects of the conflict from the human perspective--they are about people in war, not about war written through the vehicle of a person experiencing it. To dimiss fiction out of hand really short-changes the reader, IMHO. As for non-veterans writing war fiction I can hold up Stephen Crane against this argument. Very young, no military experience, he wrote the fictional account of the American Civil War. Lauded my veterans themselves as capturing the experience of the war. I think it may be the quality of the fiction read that could be the problem, not the genre itself. I could also give examples of non-fiction books on the war that have dates wrong, facts wrong, names wrong, but this doesn't cause me to condemn all non-fiction as a waste of time! Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan and Terry Posted 28 January , 2007 Share Posted 28 January , 2007 Up to now no one seems to have mentioned all the fiction the Field Marshall Haig was guilty of handing out to the Government using on several occasions General W. Robertson as his spokesman.How many times did he tell Robertson things were going far better than they actually were in order to get Lloyd George off his back.I have read were Haig told the Government that the Germans were just about finished and the prisoners we had taken were broken old men as that was all Germany had left. Haig was warned that Lloyd George was on his way to visit these prisoners,so he had all the fit prisoners removed,so when the Prime Minister came all he saw was the old and poorly,and that is fact not fiction. Joan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 28 January , 2007 Share Posted 28 January , 2007 Can you tell me where you read this please? Do you consider the source to be a reliable one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hederer Posted 28 January , 2007 Share Posted 28 January , 2007 Up to now no one seems to have mentioned all the fiction the Field Marshall Haig was guilty of handing out to the Government using on several occasions General W. Robertson as his spokesman.How many times did he tell Robertson things were going far better than they actually were in order to get Lloyd George off his back.I have read were Haig told the Government that the Germans were just about finished and the prisoners we had taken were broken old men as that was all Germany had left. Haig was warned that Lloyd George was on his way to visit these prisoners,so he had all the fit prisoners removed,so when the Prime Minister came all he saw was the old and poorly,and that is fact not fiction. Joan Interesting thought, though not much to do with the topic, or? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan and Terry Posted 28 January , 2007 Share Posted 28 January , 2007 Can you tell me where you read this please? Do you consider the source to be a reliable one? I do hope I will not be in trouble for quoting from the book In Flanders Field,author Leon Wolff. "Sir Douglas and his staff told the Prime Minister of the wretched calibre of German prisoners now been taken-proof that the enemy was scraping the bottom of his barrel.Lloyd George asked to see some of them.The officers hesitated.Would he not prefer to drive to Vimy ridge for a fine veiw of the enemy lines?Lloyd George replied in the negative,and since there was no stopping him,GHQ surreptitiously phoned one of the Fifth Army Corps headquarters and gave indtructions to remove all able-bodied prisoners from the compound before the Prime Minister arrived.When he got there he was forced to agree that"the men were a weedy lot.They were deplorably inferior to the manly specimens I had seen in earlier stages of the War" As for the second part of your query,yes I consider the source to be reliable,Leon Wolff has been shown to be a very reliable author,the Preface having been written by Lyn Macdonald. Regards Joan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan and Terry Posted 28 January , 2007 Share Posted 28 January , 2007 Interesting thought, though not much to do with the topic, or? Paul Paul, I feel it has something to do with the topic,that is fact or fiction,what I trying to get across is Haig also wrote fiction,not so much by writing a book,but in memo's e.t.c. Joan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 28 January , 2007 Share Posted 28 January , 2007 But was Haig concerned with entertainment and literary merit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan and Terry Posted 28 January , 2007 Share Posted 28 January , 2007 But was Haig concerned with entertainment and literary merit? Not having read Haigs version of the Great War,I could not possibly comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 28 January , 2007 Share Posted 28 January , 2007 their works are so powerful and explore imporant aspects of the conflict from the human perspective--they are about people in war, not about war written through the vehicle of a person experiencing it. Paul That may be the key, Paul. Like the Sword of Honour trilogy? Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hederer Posted 28 January , 2007 Share Posted 28 January , 2007 QUOTE (Phil_B @ Jan 28 2007, 06:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That may be the key, Paul. Like the Sword of Honour trilogy? Phil B Phil, I have to admit I don't know the Sword and Honour trilogy. Could you describe it please? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 28 January , 2007 Share Posted 28 January , 2007 Evelyn Waugh`s trilogy about "ordinary" officers at war in WW2. I`ll leave it to the literati to describe! Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Tucker Posted 28 January , 2007 Share Posted 28 January , 2007 There was a very good TV adaption of Waugh's 'Sword of Honour' trilogy 4-5 years ago.Daniel Craig now better known as James Bond starred. I have the VCR. Do not know whether there has been a DVD! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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