Tim Birch Posted 6 January , 2003 Share Posted 6 January , 2003 Do other forum members find it difficult to follow actions or battles in a lot of books, particularly some of the more recent publicaions due to a lack of diagrams/maps? I appreciate that dipicting movement presents a challenge to an author, and sometimes a sequence needs to be drawn. The best books are those with fold out diagrams, or loose leaf attatchments which can be read in conjunction with the text. Some of my older books, published between the Wars have this facility, but I haven't seen it in more recent publications. I find books which have a diagram in the text irratating where the text runs onto pages different from the diagram, and even more irratating are those that have an appendix of diagrams at the back. The reader spends all their time flipping from page to page, and if you don't finish up loosing your page, you will certainly loose the thread! I suspect that cost is the reason why this practice seems to have been abandoned, but as most people buying this type of book are likely to be enthusiasts, I wonder if they would be prepared to pay a bit more to make their read a lot easier and more enjoyable? So to all you publishers and authors out there, how about more easily referenced diagrams/maps/plans in your books? What do other forum members think? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 6 January , 2003 Share Posted 6 January , 2003 I agree. I'm reading Jonathan Nicholl's book on Arras 'Cheerful Sacrifice' which has excellent maps, moving down from Army / Corps level to battalion level, by the same artist who did the maps for Middlebrook's 'First Day on the Somme'. I find some of the black and white reproduced trench maps in some of the 'Battleground Europe' series very hard to follow. It's all cost I suppose. The best maps I've ever seen are in Stacke's 'Worcestershire Regiment in the Great War' reprinting soon - absolutely outstanding. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 6 January , 2003 Share Posted 6 January , 2003 Yes, it does all come down to cost. When Tony Spag and Ted Smith published the 1st edn of Anatomy Of A Raid they had fold out photos, maps and plans - but the book virtually bankrupted them! And it was self-published - few commercial publsihers would want a book that had "fold out bits" as the logistics of getting it printed and bound would be far more complicated than a standard format. You may also be surprised to know that as authors we have pitifully little control as to how our books are produced - at least, I speak of my own experience with P&S. And do remember that all photos, illustrations, maps and plans are at the cost of the author - not the publisher. So as an author on 7.5% royalties (of sale price, not cover price remember) for a BE pbk you soon have your first royalty cheque wiped out by a few IWM photos, PRO maps or maps from a published source. We all know the sort of books we want, but at the end of the day the rewality is very few people would be prepared to pay for them. I have a friend who did a two volume bible on German Flak - it had 2000+ photos, every technical drawing etc etc - i.e. everything you ever needed to know about Flak. It was a fine book - but cost - £150. I think that says it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Carter Posted 6 January , 2003 Share Posted 6 January , 2003 Can I also put my tuppence worth in please and agree what Paul has mentioned about costs for the research, photos, illustrations and maps etc. As many of you out there in 'Forum land' know I am under contract with Pen & Sword to do High Wood in the Battlefield series books. I am tadge late with it so far (three years!!!). But, It has took time and a lot of expense to gather info and photographs, copies from War Diaries etc. However, reading between the lines many Forum users seem not to be very enthusiastic regarding some of the WW1 Battlefield Europe series. Would some of you like to suggest what you think is wrong with them and what you would like to see in a battlefield guide regarding the battles for High Wood & Wood Lane. However, pull out maps are not possible. Regards Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 6 January , 2003 Share Posted 6 January , 2003 Hello Terry, One can remark a few things about the battleground europe series: it costs a lot for what you get (paperback, messy lay out) (this can be said about recent WW1 publications in general: all books are quite expensive and in a lot of cases there isn't anything new in it) as being especially interested in the German side of the conflict, I find it very annoying to find almost nothing about the Germans. Historical research demands an objective view, which can be achieved by researching both sides. Besides, there are a lot of interesting details to find in German sources. This is also a remark that fits a lot of the recent literature about WW1. British historiography from right after the war didn't have this deficiency. F.i. both Bean and Edmonds read and used German unit histories for their superb works. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munce Posted 6 January , 2003 Share Posted 6 January , 2003 Are there any German unit histories available in translation around? Or indeed any other books dealing with the German side of things which you (any of you) could recommend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 6 January , 2003 Share Posted 6 January , 2003 One can remark a few things about the battleground europe series: it costs a lot for what you get (paperback, messy lay out) (this can be said about recent WW1 publications in general: all books are quite expensive and in a lot of cases there isn't anything new in it) as being especially interested in the German side of the conflict, I find it very annoying to find almost nothing about the Germans. Historical research demands an objective view, which can be achieved by researching both sides. Besides, there are a lot of interesting details to find in German sources. This is also a remark that fits a lot of the recent literature about WW1. British historiography from right after the war didn't have this deficiency. F.i. both Bean and Edmonds read and used German unit histories for their superb works. Jan In an ideal world, maybe - but do remember both Bean and Edmonds had vast teams of researchers to do all the donkeywork for them! Wish to God we could have that with BE! I am also surprised that you think they cost a lot; both my walking books were over 200 pages each, Walking The Somme being 100 pages longer than most BE titles, but only £1 more. A tenner for 144 pages (as most of them are) plus all that info seems a bargin to me, especially when you consider the poor authors only get about 50p per copy - if they are lucky! The question of German sources I thought we had discussed before; Bean and Edmonds published vast volumes; with BE we are restricted to 144 printed pages for the specific titles. Barely enough space for the British viewpoint, let alone adding the German side of things - and indeed, the French come to that. There just isn't the room or the time to include it, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 6 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 6 January , 2003 Thanks Guys Thats rather what I suspected. If fold out maps add too much to the expense, what about an Appendix containing maps, diagrams etc, which is printed and bound on its own separately, but sold with the book? I do a bit of rock climbing and have come across guide books which are in two parts for a particular area. You purchase them to-gether as one book in an outer PVCu folder showing the title, cover photo etc, with each book slipping into a wallet in the outer folder. That way you can cut down on the bulk and weight you need to carry when doing a climb by just taking one book. They are published privately by the Climbers' Club (who would expect to make a profit) and are sold to the public at about £15 to £20 each (ie for a pair of books). The quality of printing is good with lots of diagrams, colour and b&w photos. The market they are aimed at is limited and specialised in much the same way that it is for those persuing our interest. If they have the technology to this type of printing without making a loss, why can't publishers like P&S do something similar? In my earlier post I refered to some of the inter-war books I have got. One of the best from a production point of view is "Khaki and Gown" Field Marshal Birdwood's autobiography published in 1941. Not only does it have phtographs, but some superb full colour pull out maps (Bartholomew). The original price is not shown (I bought it from a second hand dealer 3 years ago for £15). My point, however, is that this type of production was common at the time. Printing techniques have made great bounds since then, and production should have become easier and cheaper. Is it possibly the case that the publishers/printers are dictating to the authors and public what they shall have rather than their trying to be flexible and meet a demand? I have never written a book and my admiration goes out to the likes of Paul and Terry who undertake this type of work. My appologies if my comments ruffle any feathers, but it seems that it is the publishers/printers who are the culprits here. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Carter Posted 6 January , 2003 Share Posted 6 January , 2003 Hi Tim You certainly have not ruffled my feathers. I understand what you mean about the quality of your rock climbing books. It would be nice if P&S used colour in their maps. Perhaps when I have finished High Wood (the 100th anniversery would be apt in 2016 don't you think) printing technology will be even better!!! Cheers Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 6 January , 2003 Share Posted 6 January , 2003 I am constantly unhappy with the maps in military books. For instance the new Isonzo by Schneider is quite a good book but does not have a single map of the entire Isonzo front or of the enitre Italian front to put the small maps in context. One of the best mapped books ever is 1938 American Armies and Battlefields In Europe which has large color folded maps separate from the book, one each for Argonne, Aisne-Oise and St. Mihiel as well as attached folding color maps and many maps on the pages of the book. It sold for about $3 I think and can be had at a reasonable price today but if published today would cost a fortune. Last night while reading the good but terribly mapped Soissons 1918, I had the large fold up of Aisne-Oise out with three cats wanting to jump on it! Scary since the maps are pristine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Holstein Posted 6 January , 2003 Share Posted 6 January , 2003 I can only agree with Paul and Terry on the question of the lack of control that authors have over the BE series. I would have liked at least one of the aerial photos of Fort Douaumont in my recent book to have been printed in colour but it was ruled out as too expensive. As Paul says, by the time you've gone to museums and archives for photos, you've used up a huge chunk of royalties. French museums charge the earth for photos. As to the German side of things Jan, in my book you'll find that the Germans get 50% of the action, which is only fair. In fact, I specifically asked P & S to change the suggested cover illustration of my book so as to have a German subject. I didn't want a French subject on the cover of a book about a fort that was occupied by the Germans throughout almost the whole of the battle. As regards German regimental histories translated into English, I've never come across any. The Douaumont volume of the German narrative history of the war "Schlachten des Weltkrieges" was translated into French in the 30s - and brilliantly done too - but that's the only translation I've ever come across. It's a pity because their regimental histories are mines of the most fascinatingly detailed information that you could ever wish to find. Christina Holstein. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 6 January , 2003 Share Posted 6 January , 2003 In an ideal world, maybe - but do remember both Bean and Edmonds had vast teams of researchers to do all the donkeywork for them! Wish to God we could have that with BE! I am also surprised that you think they cost a lot; both my walking books were over 200 pages each, Walking The Somme being 100 pages longer than most BE titles, but only £1 more. A tenner for 144 pages (as most of them are) plus all that info seems a bargin to me, especially when you consider the poor authors only get about 50p per copy - if they are lucky! The question of German sources I thought we had discussed before; Bean and Edmonds published vast volumes; with BE we are restricted to 144 printed pages for the specific titles. Barely enough space for the British viewpoint, let alone adding the German side of things - and indeed, the French come to that. There just isn't the room or the time to include it, sadly. I hope you don't take this personnally, but I did the research for the book about Gheluvelt on my own and I managed to get quite a view about the units in the village. Of course I never got my research paid back by the book. This book has 400 pages, over 500 illustrations and costs 40 euros, which equals 26 pounds. It has a hardback cover (and everything you want about a professionally printed book, if I may say). It was printed on about 1,000 books. I think the English publishers just want to earn too much. (You know I had to argue very much to have 1 euro (65p) per book!) I want to publish abook in the BE series about Gheluvelt centre and I will have the German side in it too, because I know the British public wants it and is interested in it. It's a matter of choosing accents. If you tell 20 pages about an attack in 1914, you have to cut in one side to show the attack on the other side. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 6 January , 2003 Share Posted 6 January , 2003 Terry et al: Big apologies if I've offended anyone who has put in the time and effort to produce any book which adds to the understanding of the war that fascinates us all. I for one really value the Battlefield Europe series which accompanied me on my first trip to the Somme. I merely wanted to point out that one of the volumes in the series (not a Somme book) had very 'busy' maps that were a bit hard to follow - the quality of the text was peerless nevertheless. Terry: I for one can't wait for your 'High Wood' - put me down for a copy now if you like! I'm on to my second copy of 'Birmingham Pals' as my first has fallen apart from frequent lending and reference. Sorry if I sounded an ungrateful consumer! Thank God that the understanding of the war continues to grow through your (plural) efforts. Cheers Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 7 January , 2003 Share Posted 7 January , 2003 No feathers ruffled here either, but I think it is important people realise the commercial aspects of publishing - and how this influences the wishes of the author. When I first wrote Walking The Somme nearly ten years ago, I envisaged a spiral bound book with laminated covers (similar to the rock-climbing ones mentioned above) - but at the time couldn't find a publisher who could do it without me forking out thousands to get it done. I was advised by a well known WW1 authority to approach P&S; they then 'sat' on the book for 3 years, and I was told it was an approach to the battlefields no-one would buy into... well, I go the last laugh on that one! I fully apreciate the shortfalls in recent BE publications, and personally I have just written my last book for them (Arras); but for a commercial publisher they do publish 'minority' works. And as good as your proposed BE book on Gheluvelt might be Jan, it is a minority book in UK commercial terms... just like my own books on Courcelette and Combles are. For that I suppose we should be grateful to P&S; at least through them such titles are appearing in print, when ten years ago they never would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 7 January , 2003 Share Posted 7 January , 2003 Thanks to all who write these books and to P&S, none of you are going to get rich but glad you can make a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Carter Posted 8 January , 2003 Share Posted 8 January , 2003 Thanks for your kind words Paul. If you want a guest speaker over in the USA I am cheap. Just cover my air fare, hotel, perhaps a few days in Disney Land and I'm all yours Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 8 January , 2003 Share Posted 8 January , 2003 I take the criticisms of some of the BE series books. Production is rough round the edges, some need a good proof-read, diagram positioning and numbering is sometimes less than orderly. Sometimes they feel 'amateur'. But for me that's part of their attraction. You know that it has not been written by some bored professional who could not care less about his subject and destined for a coffee-table top. They have clearly been written by people who not only understand the subject but who engage emotionally with it and aimed at like-minded people. That's important to me. It's a sign of openness, democracy and knowledge-sharing at work. Great. They come in under £10 (which means your local libary can be persuaded to take them) and they fit in your anorak pocket or your day-bag. And they distill an awful lot of information. What would life be like without them? Think of all trench maps you would have to cart round. Consider them as pocket-tool rather than as a book. One problem I have noticed with them over the past year is availability. I normally top up my stock on my visits to the UK. But this year the BE WW1 titles have become increasingly difficult to find. My local UK Blackwell, Waterstone and Smiths don't seem to carry them any more. This might be a local problem - I don't know. Diagrams: Have people seen the wonderful diagrams on some of the WW1 websites? There are some fantastic ones on the Sheffield Pals' web site explaining the attack on Serre on July 1. See: http://www.btinternet.com/~a.jackson/map0720.htm In the near future you'll be able to download this, put it on a disc, stand in the fields near Serre and play it through your mobile phone or palm computer or notebook. So do guide books have a future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted 8 January , 2003 Share Posted 8 January , 2003 The best history that I've seen in regard to maps and diagrams would have to be Charles Bean's Offical Australian History volume 1-6 and Gullet's volume 7 on Sinai & Palestine. Each diagram on a page refers to that particular page so there's no swishing the pages back and forth. (Which is why I also prefer footnotes to endnotes, but I guess that's getting into a different area) Cheers Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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