War Diary

[Dawson]

Dear All.

After asking Clive/Paul to do a research for me regarding my Great Grandfather,

who was in the 15th battalion of the lancashire fusiliers.

And their research has been hampered by the fact that some b******d has nicked

the battalion war diary for the first of July 1916 from the PRO

How low can you get?

So one man's actions has deprived everyone of ever seeing it.

I hope his nose falls off.

Sorry about venting my spleen,but I had to get it off my chest.

Ian.

[Ste]

Ian,

sorry to hear that, it is a scandalous thing to do.

You might try the Lancashire Fusiliers museum at the Wellington Barracks in Bury. Click here for more info.

Regards,

Ste

[Guest Hill 60]

So one man's actions has deprived everyone of ever seeing it.

I hope his nose falls off.

Whoever has stolen this document has deprived future generations of history, that makes me so mad!

I hope that more than his nose falls off, 24 hours before his head implodes..slowly!

What a scum-bag

[Muerrisch]

Typescript copies of almost all [all?] war diaries were prepared officially after the war. Most regimental museums have/ had a complete set.

It may well be that a historian of the battalion has a complete photocopy, as I indeed have for 2RWF. If so, this site is your best hope of locating one.

Good luck with yours, but, of course, the original was probably in mss, and probably written in great grief and fear.

As for his NOSE falling off, can we not think of something more devastating? Assuming it was male.

[John_Hartley]

Ian

If you click the link as suggested by Ste, you'll see the phone number for the curator, Tony Sprason. Give him a buzz. He's very helpful. They certainly have quite a lot of the War Diaries, but don't know if that particular Bn. If not, they do have a copy of the Regimental History which is very comprehensive.

John

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Ian,

Chill out bro................before accusing someone of a dirty deed, it is well to remember that some parts of war diary's were lost before their public release. In addition it is also possible that it has been mis-filed into another box when photocopied by one of the staff on the hour service.

IanB

[Guest Pete Wood]

The part that I don't understand is - why steal it??

It can't be sold or shown to anyone (who knows what the diary is).

I have found similar missing documents, at the PRO. Even though I reported the matter, so that the PRO staff could check who had the documents before me (and so I wouldn't be accused at a later date!!), I was told it was a waste of time.

"If someone intends to steal documents, they will probably have given a false name and address when they obtained their reader ticket," was the plausible reply given to me by a PRO manager.

The same manager also told me that, on the few occassions that they have been able to prove who took certain documents, they [the thieves] were experts in their subject; by that I mean historical, not theft.

So, folks, look around you. There's a good chance that whoever took the diary is as passionate about WW1 as you and me. You might even know the person.....

So what can be done about it??

Is there a way to prevent the material being taken from the PRO??

[Jock Bruce]

The part that I don't understand is - why steal it??

It can't be sold or shown to anyone (who knows what the diary is).

I have found similar missing documents, at the PRO. Even though I reported the matter, so that the PRO staff could check who had the documents before me (and so I wouldn't be accused at a later date!!), I was told it was a waste of time.

"If someone intends to steal documents, they will probably have given a false name and address when they obtained their reader ticket," was the plausible reply given to me by a PRO manager.

The same manager also told me that, on the few occassions that they have been able to prove who took certain documents, they [the thieves] were experts in their subject; by that I mean historical, not theft.

So, folks, look around you. There's a good chance that whoever took the diary is as passionate about WW1 as you and me. You might even know the person.....

So what can be done about it??

Is there a way to prevent the material being taken from the PRO??

You probably can't stop theft entirely without introducing a very 'heavy' supervisory regime.

As for the motivation - obsession? desire to 'own' something that mentions grandad? it disproves the PhD you've spent 3 years on ? etc, etc - in many cases more a question for the medical profession than historians.

Jock

[Max Poilu]

Perhaps I look suspicious (!) but the few times I have visited the PRO my bag was always searched...

If it was indeed stolen his/her actions are beyond contempt.

[Paul Reed]

Chill out bro................before accusing someone of a dirty deed, it is well to remember that some parts of war diary's were lost before their public release. In addition it is also possible that it has been mis-filed into another box when photocopied by one of the staff on the hour service.

The former is not the case, as I have looked at this diary myself 10+ years ago. The latter is quite possible, but sadly I fear it is theft. 1st July and Salford Pals - too much of a coincidence.

[Muerrisch]

Just had a belated thort.

PRO has an electronic record of who requests what. Certainly it can tell me what I have seen, over the years. I bet the computer can also produce a list of who has consulted that particular piece.

Then it might be worth specifically asking these people not "did you steal it?", but "did you make a copy?".

PRO might well have an interest in tracking the item down.

[ianw]

Such thefts are indeed reprehensible . Indeed stealing a nation's irreplaceable heritage is perhaps as serious a theft as one can conceive. However I sympathise with the N.A who correctly make these items available to all. Occasional thefts are the price we pay for this access.

[Alan Seymour]

The following two books will be of interest in your research:-

1. 'God's Own' 1st Salford Pals 1914 - 1916, An account of the 15th (Service) Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers by Neil Drum & Roger Dowson. pub. 2003 ISBN 185216 150 7.

A review of this book can be found on Tom Morgan's 'Hellfire Corner' website http://www.hellfire-corner.demon.co.uk/reviewsalfordpals.htm

2. 'Salford Pals' - 15th, 16th 19th & 20th Battalions Lancashire Fusiliers. A history of the Salford Brigade by Michael Stedmam pub. 1993 by Pen & Sword ISBN 0 85052 356 7

[Andrew Smith]

G'day All,

I certainly hope that the diary hasn't gone missing. Quite a few combat in the air reports (citars) were stolen from the PRO a few years back by a low life that then published the information he had stolen.

I don't know how many citars were recovered, as some occasionally some appear on ebay, but if it was left up to me, the low life would never see the light of day again. I believe however that he is now a free man.

Andrew.

[Dawson]

Hi all,

I'am now feeling better.

thanks for all your replies,also cheers to Andrew on the book recomendations,

I do have both books.

I have heard that the M Steadman one is being put back in print in a hardback edition.

Also if anyone has a copy of God's own.

His picture is in it, page 73, his name is Joseph Murphy, and he's pictured

with his mates from C company.

Thanks again.

Ian

[Michael]

In another thread, Steve Seamen said that there is currently a tour of original documents at the PRO, including diaries from 1/7/16. Maybe the missing diaries have been removed for display.

Michael

[Guest Steve Seaman]

See my thread on the National Archives , behind the scenes tour, hopefully I may have an answer to where the missing diary is, tomorrow.

Steve

[Promenade]

Hello,

Staying on the theme of documents going 'missing' assoc 1/7/16, the officer's papers of 2nd Lt George Stuart Arthur 5 Cheshire Regt who was killed in action 1/7/16 have also gone 'missing'. They were available earlier in the year but I did not copy them preferring to wait - wrong decision. The recent stocktake at the PRO also failed to turn them up. Have they been stolen or simply misplaced?

Joe Devereux

[Sue Light]

When you consider the amount of 'Wrong production,' some of the problem must be mis-filing. A few weeks ago I had all of my WO95 advanced order appearing as boxes of WO97, and last week two officer's files wrongly produced, both being one digit out - not the last digit, but one in the middle, making it totally random! If they are being taken out wrongly, there must be a number that are being put back in the wrong place - or is this too simplistic an answer?

Regards - Sue

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Sue,

You have a good point there. I can at least recall three occasions where I have ordered a document and found amongst the papers, 'additional' paperwork belonging to another file!!

Ian

[Guest Steve Seaman]

I did not have much luck on the phone, so i emailed the PRO a question as to what diaries were on display.

They promise a reply within 10 days,Watch this space.

Steve

[Guest Steve Seaman]

Got a reply, not the answer everyone hoped for the two diaries were

8 Bn East Surreys Ref: WO 95 / 2050

11 Bn East Lancs Ref: WO 95 / 2366

Steve

[hmsk212]

Got a diary out for the Manchesters on Saturday, completely shuffled, took about half an hour to put it back in some kind of order so that I could find what I was looking for. I suppose that this kind of thing occurs mostly during photocopying. On that note I had a go at someone who was using the new self service copier and was taking pages out of the middle of a file without marking the space and was putting them back willy nilly. Almost as annoying as missing files but not quite.

Steve

[Michael]

Thanks for enquiring Steve

Michael

[Dawson]

According to the PRO.

The war diary of the 1st Salford pals for the 1st of July 1916, was apparently stolen in 1991, and a man was prosecuted. But unbelievably they were unable to get back the diary.

The Salford Advertiser on hearing of my annoyance are putting out an appeal in the paper, hoping that someone made a copy before the b*****d nicked it.

Ian.