WJBates Posted 27 November , 2003 Posted 27 November , 2003 I realize that there could not be a medal or bar for each battle, but there were several major battles specific to Flanders. Can anyone further this thought ?
Paul Reed Posted 27 November , 2003 Posted 27 November , 2003 'Battle bars' were planned to be issued, to be worn on the British War Medal, and these included some for operations in Flanders. However, they were never issued on cost grounds.
Guest Hill 60 Posted 27 November , 2003 Posted 27 November , 2003 Paul - Am I right in thinking that the bars for the Royal Navy were authorised and can be seen on minatures?
Paul Reed Posted 27 November , 2003 Posted 27 November , 2003 Only to officers it seems; and the bars are all 'unofficial' as far as I am aware, in that authority to wear was not granted. Unless someone has a document/source to show otherwise? Would be interesting to know.
CROONAERT Posted 27 November , 2003 Posted 27 November , 2003 I realize that there could not be a medal or bar for each battle, but there were several major battles specific to Flanders. Can anyone further this thought ? Are we talking just British medals here? Because several bars or medals were issued for combats in Flanders by several nations who partook in them. Dave.
WJBates Posted 28 November , 2003 Author Posted 28 November , 2003 Thank you for the response. I am referencing in general terms for all, and specifically for Canadian interests. So many major involvements. I'm not aware of army battle bars or other medals for "Flanders", Dave, can yoiu elaborate ? ....jack
michaeldr Posted 28 November , 2003 Posted 28 November , 2003 Paul/Lee Re the issue of a Clasp to the RN; Fevyer & Wilson quote the following Fleet Orders for the 1914 Star and Clasp showing that at least as far as this medal/clasp are concerned they were actually issued and to both Officers and men M.C. 17433/18 - 2.1.1919 "The award is to the Officers and men............who actually served in France and Belgium on the establishment of a Unit landed for service on shore between the 5th August and midnight 22nd -23rd November 1914." C.W. 30434/19 - 17.12.1919 "His Majesty the King having been pleased to approve the grant of a clasp to the Officers and men who have been awarded the '1914 Star' and who actually served under the fire of the enemy in France and Belgium between the 5th August and midnight, 22nd-23rd November 1914........... In undress uniform when the ribands are worn, the grant of the clasp will be denoted by the wearing of a small silver rose in the centre of the riband." A total of 11,946 [1914 Stars] were earned, of these 11,487 were issued and Clasps/Bars issued totalled 5,275 The medal rolls quoted by Fevyer & Wilson show the dates when the individual clasps were issued. I hope that this is of help Michael D.R.
Guest Hill 60 Posted 28 November , 2003 Posted 28 November , 2003 Michael - Thanks for confirming that, I had a feeling that was the case.
Terry Denham Posted 28 November , 2003 Posted 28 November , 2003 Is there some confusion above re the RN clasp - or is it me? The original question was about the issue of clasps to commemorate certain battles or actions. We know that no recommendations for army (or RAF) clasps were ever announced but those for the Royal Navy were and were printed in Admiralty Weekly Order 2051 in August 1920 (and printed in Admiralty Fleet Order C.W.6154 - 07.07.20). These were due to be added to the British War Medal. No clasps were finally issued - but there is a full list of the proposed RN clasps in Dorling's 'Ribbons and Medals' with the full text of C.W.6154. Michael above gives details for the clasp issued to go on the 1914 Star as issued to all forces, army and navy, who landed and came under fire between 05.08.14 and 22.11.14. This was is recognition of them being the first under fire rather than for being in specific battles - the point of the original question. Or is it me? (non-medal collector)
michaeldr Posted 28 November , 2003 Posted 28 November , 2003 at least as far as this medal/clasp are concerned they were actually issued and to both Officers and men Terry, My reply was addressed to Lee and Paul, and was regarding their discussion as to whether or not clasps were issued and if so to whom I agree that it was not strictly germane to the original question as raised by W.J. Bates but as I said, I hope that it was helpful It is too easy to get diverted on these threads isn't it Not a medal collector either Michael D.R.
Terry Denham Posted 28 November , 2003 Posted 28 November , 2003 Michael Getting diverted is a very common occurrance. One of the dangers of the subject being so diverse and interesting! Cheers
CROONAERT Posted 29 November , 2003 Posted 29 November , 2003 I'm not aware of army battle bars or other medals for "Flanders", Dave, can yoiu elaborate ? ....jack No problem Jack. Off the top of my head, I can think of the "LYS" and "YPRES-LYS" clasps that can be found on the US Victory Medal, the Belgian"Yser Medal" for that battle of 1914 along with the (unnofficial, but recognised)"Antwerp Medal". The Germans had a "Flanders Cross" (I think this was a veteran's association (Kyffhauserbund?) issue) for those who served in the Flanders campaign(s). I've also seen an unnofficial clasp ,"Flandern" ,worn on the German "Hindenburg Cross". Dave.
WJBates Posted 30 November , 2003 Author Posted 30 November , 2003 Thank you all for resolving the "Flanders" question, and Dave's detailed info. Jack
Droocoo Posted 19 June , 2009 Posted 19 June , 2009 on the 1914-1915 star, there are bars with qualification dates on them.
Chris_Baker Posted 19 June , 2009 Posted 19 June , 2009 First I've heard of it, Droocoo. Please expand.
PhilB Posted 19 June , 2009 Posted 19 June , 2009 With the benefit of long hindsight, I`ve tried to work out a manageable, fair and representative list of bars but couldn`t. There are so many battles and theatres that drawing the line becomes near impossible and the small number of medals doesn`t help. I`d have favoured a medal for each year with just a handful of possible bars. For example, 1915 with Gallipoli, Ypres and Loos. Trouble is, so many men would qualify for most bars so why bother!
Droocoo Posted 19 June , 2009 Posted 19 June , 2009 Chris, the 1914 star was given out to the Old Contemptibles of ww1. The majority of men who recieved this medal, took part in the retreat from Mons, and thus it was know colloquially as the Mons star. About 365622 of these were awarded in total. There was one clasp, with the dates 5th of August to the 22nd of November 1914. Click here to see a picture
SteveE Posted 19 June , 2009 Posted 19 June , 2009 on the 1914-1915 star, there are bars with qualification dates on them. Chris, the 1914 star was given out to the Old Contemptibles of ww1. The majority of men who recieved this medal, took part in the retreat from Mons, and thus it was know colloquially as the Mons star. About 365622 of these were awarded in total. There was one clasp, with the dates 5th of August to the 22nd of November 1914. Droocoo You'll find these are two different medals, the 1914/1915 Star was not issued with any clasps. Regards Steve
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 19 June , 2009 Posted 19 June , 2009 Click here to see a picture Or look at this link, which gives a good explanation. http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/themedals.htm
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 19 June , 2009 Posted 19 June , 2009 QUOTE (Phil_B @ Jun 19 2009, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> With the benefit of long hindsight, I`ve tried to work out a manageable, fair and representative list of bars but couldn`t. There are so many battles and theatres that drawing the line becomes near impossible and the small number of medals doesn`t help. I`d have favoured a medal for each year with just a handful of possible bars. For example, 1915 with Gallipoli, Ypres and Loos. Trouble is, so many men would qualify for most bars so why bother! Aside from cost that would be a reason that the idea was rejected. They found it hard enough to administer the clasp for the 1914 Star.
Chris_Baker Posted 19 June , 2009 Posted 19 June , 2009 Chris, the 1914 star was given out to the Old Contemptibles of ww1. The majority of men who recieved this medal, took part in the retreat from Mons, and thus it was know colloquially as the Mons star. About 365622 of these were awarded in total. There was one clasp, with the dates 5th of August to the 22nd of November 1914. I did know that. Thank you. Your point was about the 1914-15 Star, which as stated above is a different award.
4thGordons Posted 19 June , 2009 Posted 19 June , 2009 The US of course issued "Bars" / "Clasps" to be worn on the Victory Medal. These were divided into "Combat Clasps" and "Service Clasps" The US army list (covering 1917-19 was....) COMBAT CLASPS Cambrai: May 20 to December 4, 1917 Somme Defensive: March 21 to April 6, 1918 Lys: April 9 to 27, 1918 Aisne: May 27 to June 5, 1918 Montdidier-Noyon: June 9 to 13, 1918 Champagne-Marne: July 18 to August 6, 1918 Aisne-Marne: July 18 to August 6, 1918 Somme Offensive: August 8 to November 11, 1918 Oise-Aisne: August 18 to November 11, 1918 Ypres-Lys: August 19 to November 11, 1918 St. Mihiel: September 12 to 16, 1918 Meuse-Argonne: September 26 to November 11, 1918 Vittorio-Veneto: October 24 to November 4, 1918 Defensive Sector: For participation in any 'minor' battle that is not 'named' in the above list April 6, 1917 to November 11, 1918 SERVICE CLASPS :Service Clasps do not have stars on the ends of the clasp. England: April 6, 1917 to November 11, 1918 France: April 6, 1917 to November 11, 1918 Italy: April 6, 1917 to November 11, 1918 Russia: Any service in European Russia Siberia: Any service in Siberia or Asian Russia There is a good "Guide" on Ebay that lists these and also estimates how many of each were issued and to whom. SEE IT HERE
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 19 June , 2009 Posted 19 June , 2009 Chris, Just to clarify my earlier post, in case you are not aware, Chris wrote the details (and more besides) in the link I provided and has made a huge contribution to WWI research.
Droocoo Posted 19 June , 2009 Posted 19 June , 2009 Steve, i posted my other post wrongly. Sorry for the inconvienience!
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