Johnyeates Posted 11 January , 2007 Share Posted 11 January , 2007 Does anyone know how I can find who enlisted in the 23rd (county of London) London Regiment Battersea, proberbly around 1916.? Thanks JohnY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 11 January , 2007 Share Posted 11 January , 2007 welcome to the forum tough question to start with - any one in particular? the medal rolls for the 23rd would give you some details (thats assuming the london regiment rolls are distinguishable from each other) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnyeates Posted 15 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 15 January , 2007 Coldstreamer, My father, Joseph Nelson Yeates, was a private in the 'London Regiment' with the No.473391. He lived in Battersea and I believe the recruits were initially put into the 23rd (county of London) regiment Battersea. I know he was badly injured and I believe it was for that reason he was transferred to the Labour Corp No. 410396. The medal rolls show that he was NOT awarded the Star which I am told means that he must have joined up after 1915. (He would have been 18 years old in 1916) He always wore on his blazer the badge of the Royal Corp of Signals, but the Corp was not established until 1920. I cannot find his record at Kew. Any ideas on how to find out his war history or next of Kin will be appreciated. He would not talk about his war or his early life. Kind Regards John Yeates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perks Posted 20 February , 2007 Share Posted 20 February , 2007 Hi I have just joined this forum and I am also researching the 23rd Battalion of the London Regiment. My Great Granfather joined in April 1916 in Earlsfield, Wandsworth. Is the 23rd a Territorial Battalion? I have a copy of his sign papers from kew, did the 23rd Battalion they mearge with another Battalion the 46th? Have been looking on the Roll of Honour for him but have not found him, Alfred William Jones from Wandsworth. Any help would be greatly appriciated. Perks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 20 February , 2007 Share Posted 20 February , 2007 John, The number 473391 belongs to the 12th Battalion London Regiment (The Rangers) not the 23rd. Perks, Do the records show any Regimental Numbers for Alfred? Have you found his medal index card? Did he survive the war? The 46th Battalion Royal Fusiliers was formed in April 1919 along with the 45th battalion and fought in North Russia in the Summer of 1919. The Royal Fusiliers were also a London regiment (small "r") and were associated with the London Regiment to some extent. The Royal Fusiliers was a Regular Army Regiment with no T.F. battalions, whilst the London Regiment was a T.F. battalion with no Regular battalions. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perks Posted 20 February , 2007 Share Posted 20 February , 2007 Hi Steve, He did not survive the war, he was killed on 5th April 1918, and is buried at Arras. He was a private no 701969 in the London Regiment (23rd Battalion) as it was when he was called up on 10/4/1916, although would you be called up to a Territorial Battalion? He was shot in the hip in June 1917, and returned to England to New Road Hospital in Cheltenham patched up and returned to France in October 1917, to die the following year. Any further thoughts on this would be great. Thanks for your help Perks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perks Posted 20 February , 2007 Share Posted 20 February , 2007 Hi again I have just taken a look at his medal card, a copy of which is below. He seems to have two numbers 5128 and the 701969, maybe the first is a territorial number? As you can see he was awarded the Victory and British Medals, not sure what TP 23/101 means though. Perks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 20 February , 2007 Share Posted 20 February , 2007 Before 1917, each of the Territorial battalions of all the Territorial Regiments issued their own numbers. As you can imagine this created identification problems when you started to issue thousands of numbers, especially in Regiments with a lot of TF battalions like the Londons. In early 1917 all Territorial battalion men were issued a new number with each battalion within a Regiment having a block assigned to them. The 23rd Londons were issued block 700001 to 720000, making Alfred the 1969th man to renumbered in the 23rd Battalion. The numbers were generally reissued in the same order as the old numbers. Because he has a pre-renumbering 4-digit number on his MIC we could imply that he went overseas between 1-1-1916 (because of no 1914-15 Star) and March 1917. Of course, in Alfred's case his records might already show that anyway.... TP 23/ is a reference to the issuing Medal Office. 101 B2 is the reference of the Medal Roll (though it has to be converted into a WO329/xxxxx National Archives reference before youy can get it from the shelves) Page 283 is Page 283 of the above Medal roll book. The London Regiment Medal rolls are very good compared to others showing exact dates of service with the various battalions. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perks Posted 20 February , 2007 Share Posted 20 February , 2007 Thank you for that information, is the territorials the same as what we know it as it now. Would he have been in the territorial army first and then the regular army, or was it all the same. His father, Alfred James Jones, is in the army at this time and also serving in france at the age of 46, in the Army Service Corp, I think, as a coalporter. Alfred junior also had two brothers serving, all the brothers died, but the father returned! Regards Perks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 20 February , 2007 Share Posted 20 February , 2007 Is the 23rd a Territorial Battalion? Hi Perks, Welcome. The London Regiment and all of its battalions were part of the Territorial Force. The Regiment was formed in 1908 as part of the newly created TF. The 23rd (County of London) Battalion was previously the 4th Volunterr Battalion, The East Surrey Regiment. The area the battalion drew its volunteers from fell within the County of London, which was created in 1889. See www.regiments.org Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perks Posted 21 February , 2007 Share Posted 21 February , 2007 Only joined this forum yesterday and already I have had alot of positive information thankyou very much. The three brothers are: Alfred William Jones 23rd London Regiment Killed 5th April 1918 Charles Sidney Jones 1st Battalion Queens Own (Royal West Kent Regiment) Killed 7th September 1916 George Jones London Regiment 19th Battalion Killed 5th December 1917 Father Alfred James Jones Army Service Corp Survived. Can anybody shed any light on these facts. Interesting that the three brothers joined different regiments. Perks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave b883 Posted 3 March , 2007 Share Posted 3 March , 2007 Before 1917, each of the Territorial battalions of all the Territorial Regiments issued their own numbers. As you can imagine this created identification problems when you started to issue thousands of numbers, especially in Regiments with a lot of TF battalions like the Londons. In early 1917 all Territorial battalion men were issued a new number with each battalion within a Regiment having a block assigned to them. The 23rd Londons were issued block 700001 to 720000, making Alfred the 1969th man to renumbered in the 23rd Battalion. The numbers were generally reissued in the same order as the old numbers. Steve. Steve, Thanks for this info that you posted in response to another member's query - I was wondering why my grandfather's medal Index Card showed 2 numbers! My grandfather must have been the 577th person to be re-numbered! Do you know if there are any good online resources for the 23rd londons - particularly if there are any 'war diary' type sites available. I have only recently started researching his history (partly to help my daughter with a school project!) and some good pointers would be appreciated. I would also like to know how to tell if he was with the 1/23rd or 2/23rd - from the little I know of his movements I suspect it was the latter but is there a definitive source to check this with? - CANCEL this request, I've just come across a RAMC certficate that certifies he was "free from both vermin and scabies" (charming!) and that lists his Regt as 2/23rd London. Many thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kids3cats6 Posted 5 March , 2007 Share Posted 5 March , 2007 Dave, I found the regimental diary for the 1/23rd London Regiment at the National Archive. My great uncle - Lance Corporal Henry William Murphy was killed on the 7th of June 1917 at Ypres and so I was able to download the diary for the month of June. It has been a fascinating, if very sad, thought provoking read. My son is visiting Ypres in April and will be laying a wreath for Uncle Harry. Whimsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 5 March , 2007 Share Posted 5 March , 2007 George Jones London Regiment 19th Battalion Killed 5th December 1917 Perks, he will be: JONES, George, Private Regimental numbers 6802 and 612868 served on W Front w 1/19th London Regiment from 20/12/1916 until 05/12/1917 D of W (probably gas) 05/12/1917 as a result of the German counter attack at Bourlon Wood Buried: St Sever Cemetery Extension, Rouen Born: Hoxton Enlisted: Whitehall, London Resided: Lever St., E.C. Sources: CWGC http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=518776 Soldiers Died in the Great War Roll of Honour in Memories, the Journal of the 19th London OCA (Spring 1925 Q1) 19th London Regt BW&VM Roll p. 305 The book you should read is A Wood Called Bourlon by William Moore which has info about the operation in which he was wounded. regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave b883 Posted 6 March , 2007 Share Posted 6 March , 2007 Dave, I found the regimental diary for the 1/23rd London Regiment at the National Archive. My great uncle - Lance Corporal Henry William Murphy was killed on the 7th of June 1917 at Ypres and so I was able to download the diary for the month of June. It has been a fascinating, if very sad, thought provoking read. My son is visiting Ypres in April and will be laying a wreath for Uncle Harry. Whimsey Whimsey, Thanks for the info. I don't suppose you noticied if the 2/23rd regimental diary was present at the NA? I haven't had chance to get down there as yet - I guess it would be advisable to work out in advance what documents I'd like to see? Cheers, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kids3cats6 Posted 6 March , 2007 Share Posted 6 March , 2007 Dave, I found it on the National Archive website and paid for the download. I live in the darkest depths of Herefordshire. Sadly, it will be a long time before I get to the National Archive in person. Whimsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave b883 Posted 8 March , 2007 Share Posted 8 March , 2007 Dave, I found it on the National Archive website and paid for the download. I live in the darkest depths of Herefordshire. Sadly, it will be a long time before I get to the National Archive in person. Whimsey Whimsey, Yep - got the 2/23rds diary (jun-aug 1916) first 10 pages. Didn't find my grandad there (but it seems they only referred to officers by name, the rest were just "6 men wounded" etc!! I wish the NA site would give an indication how many pages a diary consisted of before you download it! Oh well, I'll have to save my pennies and get a bit at a time i guess. Take care, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilBaxter Posted 3 November , 2009 Share Posted 3 November , 2009 Hello, I am new to the Fourm, and have been researching my grandfather from the 23rd London Regiment aswell. Unfortunatly all I have is a name and DOB and a photo. I think I might have a serial number but I cannot match it to him for certian. His Name is Arthur Baxter, we believe he inlisted at the beggining of the war,and have his shoulder flash and cap brass from the war. Can someone help me find where I can match name to serial # and get some of his war records. I was able to get my fathers war record but had a lot more information. Apparently Arthur was a very popular name. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 3 November , 2009 Share Posted 3 November , 2009 There are two Arthur Baxters listed as being 23rd London Regiment on the NA, online Medal Index Cards..... Medal card of Baxter, Arthur E V Corps: 23rd London Regiment Regiment No: 715016 Rank: Private 1914-1920 WO 372/2 Medal card of Baxter, Arthur Corps: 23rd London Regiment Regiment No: 4907 & 701821 Rank: Private... 1914-1920 WO 372/2 Did your grandfather have any middle names? If not then the second card looks like a reasonable possibility. If you can confirm then I'll post the relevant image. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westkent78 Posted 3 November , 2009 Share Posted 3 November , 2009 A few questions. Please provide his DoB and where he was from, and I may be able to help. What's the serial number you may have? Do you know if he definitely went overseas? Is his picture in uniform? If you are able to post it the uniform might help date it. Any family legend that he was made a prisoner or wounded? 4907 Arthur Baxter is most likely a Derby Scheme man enlisting around Nov/Dec 1915 while A.E.V.Baxter is likely an initial recruit in another London battalion but didn't make it to 23rd London until 1917, so still possibly an early war enlistee. I have some information on both these men but lets see what you can provide to narrow things down. Best regards, Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilBaxter Posted 3 November , 2009 Share Posted 3 November , 2009 There are two Arthur Baxters listed as being 23rd London Regiment on the NA, online Medal Index Cards..... Medal card of Baxter, Arthur E V Corps: 23rd London Regiment Regiment No: 715016 Rank: Private 1914-1920 WO 372/2 Medal card of Baxter, Arthur Corps: 23rd London Regiment Regiment No: 4907 & 701821 Rank: Private... 1914-1920 WO 372/2 Did your grandfather have any middle names? If not then the second card looks like a reasonable possibility. If you can confirm then I'll post the relevant image. Regards Steve This is where I have gotten too in searching aswell, two names on the NA site, We don't remember him having any middle names or initials, so we thought it was the second name on the list too. But thats what we can't confirm for sure. Is the numbers 4907, 701821 his personal serial numbers? I remember seing soldiers got a different number when the went to different regiments. He was born May 1st 1886 in Upper Holloway, Islington. Thanks for the help, really appreciate it. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilBaxter Posted 3 November , 2009 Share Posted 3 November , 2009 A few questions. Please provide his DoB and where he was from, and I may be able to help. What's the serial number you may have? Do you know if he definitely went overseas? Is his picture in uniform? If you are able to post it the uniform might help date it. Any family legend that he was made a prisoner or wounded? 4907 Arthur Baxter is most likely a Derby Scheme man enlisting around Nov/Dec 1915 while A.E.V.Baxter is likely an initial recruit in another London battalion but didn't make it to 23rd London until 1917, so still possibly an early war enlistee. I have some information on both these men but lets see what you can provide to narrow things down. Best regards, Matthew He was born May 1st 1886, Upper Holloway, Islington. The serial numbers I have I think are serial numbers, from the medal card files at the NA site. 4907, 70182, are these his? We do believe he was wounded and suffered shell shock as a result, whether he returned to the front line were not sure, and as for dates of the injury we also don't know. Unfortunatly everyone who could speak about him is long since passed away, and now it's just a photo and cap brass to go on, alway like a good challenge. I found a book on the 23rd that might also help, was thinking of picking it up. Thanks for the help, solving mysteries is fun. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 3 November , 2009 Share Posted 3 November , 2009 Is the numbers 4907, 701821 his personal serial numbers? I remember seing soldiers got a different number when the went to different regiments. He was born May 1st 1886 in Upper Holloway, Islington. Neil Checking the birth registrations it looks like Arthur E(rnest) V Baxter's birth was registered in March Qtr. 1899 in Fulham, this would make him 18 in 1917 when the Territorial Force was renumbered and which could account for him only having a six-digit Territorial number The birth of Arthur Baxter (no middle names) was registered in June Qtr. 1886 in Islington. Based on the birth registrations I would lean towards 4907/701821 as being most likely to be your man. As for the numbers he would have been issued 4907 when he originally enlisted into the 23rd Londons but this battalion, along with the rest of the Territorial Force, were renumbered in 1917 and he would have been issued the new six-digit number. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 3 November , 2009 Share Posted 3 November , 2009 The MIC of the more likely man (in my opinion)..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilBaxter Posted 3 November , 2009 Share Posted 3 November , 2009 Neil Checking the birth registrations it looks like Arthur E(rnest) V Baxter's birth was registered in March Qtr. 1899 in Fulham, this would make him 18 in 1917 when the Territorial Force was renumbered and which could account for him only having a six-digit Territorial number The birth of Arthur Baxter (no middle names) was registered in June Qtr. 1886 in Islington. Based on the birth registrations I would lean towards 4907/701821 as being most likely to be your man. As for the numbers he would have been issued 4907 when he originally enlisted into the 23rd Londons but this battalion, along with the rest of the Territorial Force, were renumbered in 1917 and he would have been issued the new six-digit number. Regards Steve Thank a whole bunch for the information, that really helps alot. The puzzle is coming together. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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