Aurel Sercu Posted 25 November , 2003 Share Posted 25 November , 2003 Ten days ago we (the Diggers) located on the Boezinge Canal site what appears to be a heavy trench mortar projectile. Not really a surprise, for in the past years we had found two of its brothers nearby (less than 10 metres away). This posting is not to invite some Forum members who happen to be in the Ypres area to volunteers and to come and help us haul it out, but to find an answer as to its name. I am attaching two photos of its brother, surfacing 4 years ago (and (hopefully) neutralized since then by the bomb disposal unit at Houthulst). I'm not quite sure about the measurements of this tail-finned cigar, but from memory : 25 cm (10 in.) diameter, and somewhere in my notes I find : approx. 70 kgs. (150 lbs). But I don't remember any of us taking this baby in his arms to estimate its weight. Length ? Approx 70 - 80 cm (28 - 32 inches) ? But this is a wild guess. We have always called this item a "flying pig", and thought it was German. And actually, in a publication (Shrapnel, WFA Belgium) we find a drawing, corresponding to the thing we found, and named : "Wurfmine 24 cm für mittlerer Minenwerfer", with the four tail fins, being approx. 1/3 of the total length. The same name "flying pig" was found in a publication Soldatentaal (Soldiers' Language, only in Dutch). I have also heard the name "Weary Willy", though I am not sure it was used for the same projectile. So far no problem. The fact that the three of them were found in a German strongpoint (approx. 50 meters from the first German line !) was not worrying, for the projectiles I guessed had not been launched (yet). Or were they duds ? That the German strongpoint was captured by the British troops in the Battle of Pilkem Ridge (31 July 1917) doesn't make it less complicated. But now I am not so sure anymore about the name "flying pig", and not about the nationality either. For on the mother site I found that "flying pig" was used for a 9.45-inch (24 cm) heavy trench mortar available towards the end of 1916, and ... British ! So now I am at a loss. Is this thing British or German ? Was "flying pig" used for the British or the German heavy trench mortar projectile ? Or for both ? Is it the same as a "weary Willy" ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 25 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2003 And a second photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff. Hobson Posted 26 November , 2003 Share Posted 26 November , 2003 It looks somewhat similar to me as that upside down one outside the cafe at Hill 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 26 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 26 November , 2003 Hi Cliff, Thanks for making it even more complicated ! My problem was : German or British ? And thanks to you referring to a previous thread in the Forum, now it seems that it could be French !!! You're right, Peter Beckett started a thread about that funny sight near Hill 60, with a mortar bomb upside down in the barrel. And yes, it looks very much like the one on my photos indeed. In that thread about the Hill 60 joke (?) a Forum member suggested it was a French 240 mm, and Paul Reed wrote : "a 9.45 inch Heavy Mortar (Flying Pig) used by RGA manned Trench Mortar Batteries". To which Geoff Parker added that the British indeed copied the French 240 mm. French, German, British ? It looks like we will have to have a close look next time in order to see whether the thing is 'un cochon volant', 'ein fliegendes Schwein' or 'a flying pig'... I will ask. Very politely... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 26 November , 2003 Share Posted 26 November , 2003 There is a very good section in Saunder's "Weapons of the Trench War" covering the 9.45 inch "Flying Pig" - a French design licensed and used by the British from 1915 to 1918. It looks very much like the round pictured above. According to Saunders it was a troublesome but fearsome weapon and they were described by Ernst Junger as flying "clothes baskets". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 26 November , 2003 Share Posted 26 November , 2003 The fuse on the one in your photo looks like the French version; the British fuse was different to this - at least different on the examples I have seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 26 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 26 November , 2003 Thanks Giles, I 'll find the source you refer to. Hi Paul, So it seems that the pig is a cochon ! Actually, though I had not given it a thought before, this French nationality cannot be ruled out. For you may be interested to hear where it (they) were found : Fortin 17, that German strong-point near the Kleine Poezelstraat (the east side of our Boezinge Canal site). Yes, we know this was German indeed, and on 31 July 1917 (Battle of Pilkem Ridge) or maybe some days before was captured by the British. (They must have occupied it for a while, for we found A frames there that no doubt were British as you may remember.) But maybe we have reason to believe that before it was German it was French. The name "Fortin" ? Also : we found French cartridges there. (But we find them all over the site.) Could it have been a French strongpoint for some time ? However, knowing that the German troops arrived on the site on 22 april 1915 (Second Ypres, chlorine gas attack)... Unless it was a French position during or after First Ypres, but far behind the lines then... Complicated. I will have a look at the fuse. But not too close... Amusing detail : the one on the photo was unearthed less than an inch under the floor of a house that was pulled down 4 years ago. And then it appeared that in order to lay the floor (many years ago), someone had knocked on one of the tailfins to make it level for the floor tiles. (You can see it on the photo.) This was to be the child's room... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Parker Posted 27 November , 2003 Share Posted 27 November , 2003 Aurel The "Flying Pig" was the nickname for the 9.45in British Mortar. Whether or not the name was adopted by the French for their 240mm Mortar (of which the 9.45in is a copy) I couldn't say. Also I am under the impression that the larger German mortars did not have tail fins, their bombs being like artillery shells as their mortars were rifled. Only their smaller spigot mortars hand tail fins. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 27 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2003 The "Flying Pig" was the nickname for the 9.45in British Mortar. Whether or not the name was adopted by the French for their 240mm Mortar (of which the 9.45in is a copy) I couldn't say. Also I am under the impression that the larger German mortars did not have tail fins, their bombs being like artillery shells as their mortars were rifled. Geoff, I had posted the Flying pig question because there was some discussion in our team whether the thing was German or British. We just called them "flying pig" and for some reason thought they were German. Until these postings that is, telling me that they may be French as well. As to tail fins for the German mortars... I really have no idea. But I found this in a booklet about bombs, shells, torpedos, mines etc. (Actually it was that drawing that at first had convinced me that we were dealing with German projectiles.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Parker Posted 27 November , 2003 Share Posted 27 November , 2003 Aurel I will have another look when I get home this evening and see if I can find some photographs. Changing subject slightly. Are you still looking for info on the events around International Trench 8/9 July 1915. I have just received copies of the histories for the Hampshire and East Lancs Regts and both mention the events that took place there. Also I am waiting for a copy of the Royal Warwickshires which may also give further information. If you are still interested I will put something together for you and send it to you at a later date. Regards Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 27 November , 2003 Share Posted 27 November , 2003 Aurel - the drawing you posted shows a French model with a French fuse. The British examples I have seen are different to this; although there may have been some cross use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 27 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2003 (1) I will have another look when I get home this evening and see if I can find some photographs. (2) Changing subject slightly. Are you still looking for info on the events around International Trench 8/9 July 1915. I have just received copies of the histories for the Hampshire and East Lancs Regts and both mention the events that took place there. Geoff, (1) Should you, instead of just a photo, have a real flying pig / cochon / Schwein, you can send that one as well. Either by trench mortar, or by snail mail. I could give you my home address, or maybe even better : my neighbour's (2) As to Boezinge July 1915 : thanks for the offer, but as far as I see I have practically all regimental histories (also German) for the second half of 1915, and even some War Diaries of the specific period (first two weeks of July). But I will contact you off Forum. - And speaking about International Trench : in the past 2 - 3 months near International Trench we found remains of 8 fallen soldiers (5 German and 3 British (of who one S.L.I. and one R.B.). Something remarkable about the 3 remains we found last Saturday (German) : they appeared to have been buried (lying on their backs, next to each other. What made it rather surprising : this was in no man's land, clearly visible from both the German and the British first line. Had they been buried in one of these mini-truces ? No idea ... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Parker Posted 28 November , 2003 Share Posted 28 November , 2003 Aurel I stand corrected. The German did develop large calibre smoothbore mortars these details from German Artillery by Herbert Jager. Ehrhardt and Sehmer of Saarbrucken developed a number of smoothbore mortars in 10.5cm (4in) and 15cm (6in). The MarineKorps in Flanders apparently also had 26cm (10.4in) versions. The Flugelminenwerfer was also developed in 1917 as an answer to the French 240mm/British 9.45in mortar. It fired a fin-tailed projectile. Calibre 24cm (9.6in), tube length 50.4in, a muzzle velocity of 255-390 ft/sec and a range of 4,500-6,600 ft. The shell weighed 206lb but no other dimensions mentioned. I can find no pictures of the projectile and although the word Wurfmine appears in the index, it does not appear on any of the pages mentioned in the index. Maybe something lost in the translation. I also have two photographs one taken in the Military Technology museum in Klobenz and another in the Royal Army museum in Brussels, of a large smoothbore German mortar. The one in Brussels actually has a shell in the barrel. Although I have always understood the expression Flying Pig to belong to the British 9.45in, I suppose it is quite possible that the terminology could have been used by the front line troops for the German mortar bomb as well. I think the nicknames given by troops to various shells and bombs to be very misleading as to the actual projectile, and find it hard to believe that they would distinguish between enemy and friendly shells or bombs if of a similar size and shape. Sorry I know this doesnt really solve your original query. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 28 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 28 November , 2003 (...) The Flugelminenwerfer was also developed in 1917 as an answer to the French 240mm/British 9.45in mortar. It fired a fin-tailed projectile. Calibre 24cm (9.6in), tube length 50.4in, a muzzle velocity of 255-390 ft/sec and a range of 4,500-6,600 ft. The shell weighed 206lb but no other dimensions mentioned. (...) (...) I also have two photographs (...) (...) Sorry I know this doesnt really solve your original query. Geoff, Yes, it is useful ! So the Flugelminenwerfer (fin-tailed) was not developed until 1917 ? It would be interesting to know if they were used before 31 July 1917, since that is the date that the German troops were driven eastward again 5Battle of Pilkem ridge), and never came back to the place where the mortars (projectiles) were found. And the measurements (esp. tubelength 50.4 inches) help too. When it surfaces (probably tomorrow) I will measure it. (Question : is the tubelength with or without the fins ?) You mention photos. Photos of the projectile (bomb) or the gun ? I suppose the gun ? If it is the bomb, does it look like the drawing in one of my previous postings ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Parker Posted 28 November , 2003 Share Posted 28 November , 2003 Aurel Tube length refers to the length of the mortar tube not the projectile. Only the weight of the bomb is indicated which was 206lb. The one in Brussels (which may not be a Flugelminenwerfer as it differs from the photographs in Jagers book on German artillery but is of approximately the same size) has the bomb loaded into the mortar tube so that only the top part of the bomb is showing. Whether or not it has been propped up in this position and will drop further down the tube I couldn't say. I have been unable to turn up any photographs of the bombs on the mortar. But I will look through some more books tonight and see if I have any luck As to when in 1917 it went into operation I couldn't say. I dare say there are a ton of books on the subject published in Germany but in UK very little. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 29 November , 2003 Share Posted 29 November , 2003 Aurel, My brother says it's probably French although he would like to see a close up of the fuse to be sure. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 29 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 29 November , 2003 OK, the pig surfaced this afternoon. British, German or French ? I myself am not an expert, but all the members in the team who had some experience, agreed : this no doubt is British. Two photos. First the whole projectile. Total length (including the fuse) : 115 cm (3 ft. 9.25 inches) Diameter : 24 cm (9.45 inches) (No one was prepared to hold it in his arms to guess the weight... Next photo will show the fuse. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 29 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 29 November , 2003 And a close-up of the fuse. Digits on it : up to 22. Diameter of the brass ring on the neck : approx. 5,5 cm (2.1 inches) The 'point' of the fuse, or whatever this is called, was zinc (?) Does everybody agree that this is British indeed ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 29 November , 2003 Share Posted 29 November , 2003 The fuse in bits you have there are the type I have seen on British models - so suspect it is almost certainly British. Heavy TMBs had these mortars in 1916-17; not sure they were much used beyond that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 29 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 29 November , 2003 Thanks, Paul. Actually our problems have not been solved completely yet. If this one (and the other two we found nearby in the past months and years) are British, then a) either they are duds, fired onto this German strongpoint by British troops nearby or they had not been fired yet, were ready to be fired from that German strongpoint, after it had been captured by British troops (Battle of Pilkem ridge) and not having been used, afterwards were dumped in that trench (we found this one indeed in a trench floor). (Some of us think it is a) duds ) If this sounds complicated, actually all I (we) want to know is : is there a way to see if this flying pig had been fired or not ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 29 November , 2003 Share Posted 29 November , 2003 Aurel, I am very sorry to detract from fuse- identification subject: being in the military since 30 years, I am amazed about how you guys handle duds/ UXOs. Do you have licensed EOD personnel on site? I doubt, otherwise they'd know what this is about and they would have removed it within 24 hours or had it blown up if not possible. In knowing what such a blaster is able to do I can only shake my head that you guys even brush clean the bomb-attached fuse parts. If you have government experts on scene - forgive me, but if not - I call it carelessness. Aurel we don't want to loose you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 29 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 29 November , 2003 Egbert, I understand your concern, and I appreciate it of course. To be honest, I was not feeling very comfortable. But some of us have experience with that, over 20 years... (Yes, I know, this is no guarantee.) It was handled with extreme caution, not dragged about ... The fuse was not knocked off, for it had already come loose and was lying next to it. It looks as if what is still on the body has been thoroughly cleaned, but it was not. It came out a shiny as on the photo. Just brushing the sand off with a soft brush... The police have been notified by now, and per the normal procedure the bomb disposal unit will collect it. Carelessness... It may look like that indeed to outsiders... We should always be aware that these things can be very treacherous, and never let routine or nonchalance creep in. Again : thanks for your concern. And I do hope that we do not find any more of these pigs in the trench. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 29 November , 2003 Share Posted 29 November , 2003 Aurel we don't want to loose you! Boy o boy Aurel! I really mean the quote above serious! Take some days off and rejoin the Diggers when the UXO is history= gone to depot or blown up by one of your fellow diggers. I don't want to be the advisory teacher = but always consider it hot ordinance - routine is the EOD -killer. We don't like a thread: fellow Aurel joined the Great Army.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Parker Posted 2 December , 2003 Share Posted 2 December , 2003 Aurel I have just replied to your email off forum with some photographs of German heavy mortars but I see that the information is unnecessary. So what you have uncovered is definitely a British 9.45in Flying Pig. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Parker Posted 2 December , 2003 Share Posted 2 December , 2003 Aurel With regard to your problem of dud or unfired, very difficult. The 9.45in was in service from 1916-18 although by 1918 with mobile warfare restarting this weapon became rapidly obsolete because of its size and difficultly in relocating it. I suppose if the ground had not become too boggy it is possible that the weapon in question was moved further forward to the German trenches following their capture on or shortly after 31st July 1917. Also is it unlikely that the Germans would stack unexploded mortar shells in their trench if they were duds fired prior to 31st July 1917. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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