Grovetown Posted 3 January , 2007 Share Posted 3 January , 2007 Wow - to echo everyone above, this has been incredibly informative to me. Below is a modification of the diagram posted to reflect what I have, which if I have understood correctly is being described as an India(n?) Pattern. No vents, no collar pleats, three rear seams. It appears that this is the same as Grant's Grant could you confirm this? Thanks again to everyone who has posted in such detail (esp Andrew/Joe for getting this going) Cheers Chris Hi Chris My understanding is that a WW1 'India Pattern' KD has: stand and fall collar; gauntlet cuffs; rectangular pocket flaps; dart - one or two - and full length seams to front; fish-tail or other panel to the rear; and two vents. That would be Pattern - the thing with anything India is, of course, there was a good deal of local variation depending on tailors and other eccentricities. Collars have always been subject, to an extent, to tailoring. The wider assertion is that if it has rectangular pocket flaps - and is not WW1 India - it is post-war. Whatever you've got there; I would say it is probably post-war. Best wishes, Grovetown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 3 January , 2007 Share Posted 3 January , 2007 Grovetown - thanks - as I thought initially (but of course was in denial!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Hauraki KIA KAHA Posted 3 January , 2007 Share Posted 3 January , 2007 Hi paul-Tocemma I had a look at your old Tunic on the Regimentals website, mine is the same pattern. looks like you had a very nice Tropical collection. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantsmil Posted 3 January , 2007 Share Posted 3 January , 2007 Hi Chris My understanding is that a WW1 'India Pattern' KD has: stand and fall collar; gauntlet cuffs; rectangular pocket flaps; dart - one or two - and full length seams to front; fish-tail or other panel to the rear; and two vents. That would be Pattern - the thing with anything India is, of course, there was a good deal of local variation depending on tailors and other eccentricities. Collars have always been subject, to an extent, to tailoring. The wider assertion is that if it has rectangular pocket flaps - and is not WW1 India - it is post-war. Whatever you've got there; I would say it is probably post-war. The RE jacket with the red triangle patches, corresponds to the drawing, there are no pleats to the rear and there are three seams. It would be good to be able to identify the owners of these jackets (& when are where they served), but I have been unsuccessful in finding any information about E I WATKISS X4174. I guess that 4thGordons is in the same boat with Mr. P GREAVES X127249. I have seen no mention of KD tunics with rounded pocket flaps. You see these about occasionally. They usually have a stand and fall collar, twin pleats from the collar to the pocket, and the rear panels with extra seams joining the seam of the sleeve & twin vents at the rear. In other words they are an early WW1 pattern jacket but with rounded pocket flaps. There is also an "Australian" pattern. There are numerous photographs of Australians in the Middle East wearing lightweight cotton uniform, which does not correspond with any thing mention as yet. This jacket appear to be made of shirt material, and is made with a stand and fall collar, both breast and waist pockets. There is a waistband, and the cuffs have a V point. The pocket flaps replicate the Australian service dress jacket. It has the appearance of an officer's jacket with a high collar. The image shows Australians wearing three of the more common jackets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 3 January , 2007 Share Posted 3 January , 2007 Hi Jonathan, Yes I did have a fairly good coverage of KD including some very nice helmets at one time. As my collection was quite large I've had to be sensible and refine it, if for no other reason than lack of space. My interests include WW2 and I own and operate 6 WW2 vehicles including armour. Something had to give! I used to think I was one of the few people who was interested in KD but this thread had shown otherwise. I'm pleased about this as it is a very neglected subject. I had some really nice items from the Mesopotamian campaign too, and it was sad to see some of the same town names in the news again in recent years. Your photo is interesting. I had one of these tunics some years ago. It is identical to the Serge Service Dress introduced during the South African War with no breast pockets, patch lower pockets but with a stand and fall collar. A real hybrid but clearly based on the drab tunic. I've no idea of the extent of issue but I've seen at least two over the years, both in the UK. regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 4 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2007 And to add what I believe is another tropical piece of kit... I bought this item a few days ago to cannabalise it for the material to make copies of the tabs added to greatcoats during the war (as seen in another recent thread). It's maker marked "J.G. 1941 /I\", and the dealer didn't know what it was for. I've subsequently realised thats it's mint condition can be attributed to the fact that whoever put the last bit of edging stitching in place caught the ends of the tabs and sewed them in place, and that they were actually supposed to act as a drawstring. I believe it may be a cover for the Wolseley helmet, but as I don't own an example I cannot check to confirm if it would fit. Either way, despite it's 1941 date, it would seem to match the colour description of the earlier style KD used (old stock being used up in WW2?) so the following pictures include a colour comparison with my already mentioned jacket: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 4 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2007 "J.G. 1941 /I\" makers mark: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 4 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2007 Colour comparison of probably post-war jacket and cover (left and right respectively): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Hauraki KIA KAHA Posted 4 January , 2007 Share Posted 4 January , 2007 Hi Grant I have no written documentation, But from what I have seen in photos the 4 pocket tunic seems to be something worn on leave, maybe private purchase locally made items. Worn also by New Zealand Troops, and made of serge and officers material. here is a picture of NZMR and one Australian to the right the New Zealander Mounted Signal Trooper on the left has a serge version on. Two photos from my collection It reads on the back " First leave for eighteen months Dont produce this at home" And another NZMR trooper on leave with the KD made Item. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Hauraki KIA KAHA Posted 4 January , 2007 Share Posted 4 January , 2007 The group photo. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 5 January , 2007 Share Posted 5 January , 2007 Hi Andrew et al, Great thread fellas - sorry I haven't had the time to contribute as I've been pretty busy lately. I have a few KD tunics including a nice 2/Suffolks one of 1898. Nice to see so much nice kit photographed too. I think Andrew's tunic is a postwar pattern but for living history stuff I guess it would be fine although it seems a shame to wear out an original 1930s Palestine Police uniform... Andrew, I have three different khaki bags like the one you are asking about in three different sizes; one for the Wolseley sun helmet, one for the later Indian Pattern (flat-topped) sun helmet and another for the Brodie hemlet when carried overseas in Marching Order/FSMO as it became. I hope that's useful. Cheers, Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantsmil Posted 5 January , 2007 Share Posted 5 January , 2007 4thGordons, Chris, I have used your drawing to illustrate two other patterns. The first is one for which I can find no written information (Jonathan, nothing is readily available in Australia either). It appears to be a locally produced item. I agree with Jonathan's suggestion that it appears to be something that was a private purchase locally made item. Although it is of interest that most of the images I have seen of this jacket, seem to closely to conform to a set pattern, which is more than can be said for private purchase Australian ORs jackets made in the UK. The second is a KD SD jacket which is very similar to the others, with some minor differences, the most obvious being the rounded pocket flaps. The breeches made in KD or cotton seem to follow the standard pattern of the riding breeches, except they tend to have two pockets. Jonathon, as a matter of interest, in the group photo the Aussie on the right appears to be wearing an odd belt. Can you tell if it is a 2” web belt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Hauraki KIA KAHA Posted 5 January , 2007 Share Posted 5 January , 2007 Hi Grant Good Idea with the drawings It is the same belt you have on your website. I have a photo of NZMRs wearing this belt with a bayonet and frog at a burial in 1918. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantsmil Posted 5 January , 2007 Share Posted 5 January , 2007 Nice image Jonathon, I have seen very few images of this belt worn in Egypt and Palestine. When it is seen it is usually in Britain, France or Belgium. Somewhere I have photos of Australians wearing the ‘local’ pattern jacket in the field, but usually Australians are seen wearing the standard Australian service dress jacket or the modified KD SD jacket. (That is IF they are wearing a jacket at all, I would say that in 90% of the photos I have that were taken by soldiers, show the predominant clothing worn in the field in Palestine to be undershirts, shirts (all types) & cardigans. The KD SD and woolen jackets appear rarely.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 5 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2007 I think Andrew's tunic is a postwar pattern but for living history stuff I guess it would be fine although it seems a shame to wear out an original 1930s Palestine Police uniform... Andrew, I have three different khaki bags like the one you are asking about in three different sizes; one for the Wolseley sun helmet, one for the later Indian Pattern (flat-topped) sun helmet and another for the Brodie hemlet when carried overseas in Marching Order/FSMO as it became. Thanks for that Taff, from the size I would guess for the Wolsely. I like the fact you picked up on me wearing the uniform, but didn't query me cutting up the helmet cover to get the material out of it . I'm still not convinced as to whether the Palestine Police shoulder titles are original to the tunic (would Artillery or Palestine Police have used the black lanyards or black-backed silver-bullion Sergeants stripe that came with it? - might help answer the question), but either way the driving force behind me querying the possibility of its accuracy for WW1 display and actual date is the fact that I am trying to cut back on my military collection to focus more specifically on WW1. What I am trying to do is split my military wardobe into two halves - my original WW1 uniforms, and my collection I wear as part of living history. Since the grouping is in all probability of post-war date, if I don't put it into my living-history wardrobe it goes up for sale. And since it's a perfect fit on me, I don't want to do that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 5 January , 2007 Share Posted 5 January , 2007 Hi Andrew, Suits of decent original KD are pretty hard to come by but khaki drill sun helmet covers were so common at Sabre Sales a few years ago that Khaki Devil bought a heap to cut up and convert into Boer War sun helmet covers! They still apprear regularly so I won't lose any sleep over you cutting one up... The black lanyard and chevrons all indicate Palestine Police to me; as did oe of the stamps inside. It's a lovely suit but I suspect there are not many people who would want to save it. I was given a complete set of PP insignia a few weeks ago. I was asked to collect an "old army bike" from a lady who's husband had recently died. She asked if I would take a few boxes of junk to the tip at the same time. Inside one old biscuit tin was a complete set of PP insignia including his cap badge and slouch hat badge and a full set of buttons. There were a few other interesting old bits too. When she uncovered the bike it turned out to be a very early twin-stem folding BSA 'airborne' bike still on its original wheels. At some point it had received mudguards and pedals but the rest was complete. I told her it was probably worth quite a bit but she said, "Not to me it isn't" and insisted I take it for free. Just another lucky day... Sad to hear that you are thinning out your collection. I am sure i would make sense if we were all to do that; I may even be able to move in my house again if I did but, once this stuff goes, you never get it back again... Grant, That web '03 style belt was quite common among British soldiers of 54th Division, TF in Palestine. I have quite a few photographs of soldiers of 1/5th Suffolk wearing them including one given me by Fred Castle, the last surviving Suffolk Regiment other rank of the Great War, which was taken in a portrait studio in Cairo in late 1918 after the end of the campaign in Palestine. Cheers, Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 5 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2007 The black lanyard and chevrons all indicate Palestine Police to me; as did oe of the stamps inside. It's a lovely suit but I suspect there are not many people who would want to save it. I was given a complete set of PP insignia a few weeks ago. I was asked to collect an "old army bike" from a lady who's husband had recently died. She asked if I would take a few boxes of junk to the tip at the same time. Inside one old biscuit tin was a complete set of PP insignia including his cap badge and slouch hat badge and a full set of buttons. There were a few other interesting old bits too. When she uncovered the bike it turned out to be a very early twin-stem folding BSA 'airborne' bike still on its original wheels. At some point it had received mudguards and pedals but the rest was complete. I told her it was probably worth quite a bit but she said, "Not to me it isn't" and insisted I take it for free. Just another lucky day... Sad to hear that you are thinning out your collection. I am sure i would make sense if we were all to do that; I may even be able to move in my house again if I did but, once this stuff goes, you never get it back again... Interesting that the lanyards and chevron tie in with the Palestine Police, but the problem is they are all superficial items, and could easily have been added, and it seems a bit confusing to keep the rest of the Royal Artillery insignia attached at the same time if it is genuine! That sounds like a fun filled day with the bike and all! It's not quite thinning my collection, more "replacement therapy" - since I got interested in WW1 from WW2, and still have a bad habit of picking up assorted militaria and any antiques if that come my way cheaply, I'm making space and bringing in a little money to afford the new stuff - I am gradually getting WW1 officers kit together, and one of the things I've got my eye on at the moment is a sword. Want to buy a 1980 Maggie Thatcher Sptting Image teapot? PS Take it the period underwear thing a while ago had nothing in my size? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Morton Posted 22 January , 2007 Share Posted 22 January , 2007 Finding this thread has been very helpful. A question concerning suspenders (or braces) worn by British infantry (2nd Bn of the Hampshires - 1915). I have several front view photos showing them worn with shorts, but no back views. Were the suspenders separate at the back of crossed with a single attachment to the shorts in the center? All the best, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert Posted 24 January , 2007 Share Posted 24 January , 2007 Lawrance Ordnance AU has authentic looking repos. to the ANZAC jackets. http://www.lawranceordnance.com/khaki-and-...-world-war.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Morton Posted 24 January , 2007 Share Posted 24 January , 2007 Albert - The picture of the suspenders is EXACTLY what I was looking for! Thanks! All the best, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 15 December , 2008 Share Posted 15 December , 2008 Apologies for resurrecting this thread from the past - but it (uniquely I think) has a lot of detail KD jacket patterns - and I just picked up a photo which appears to illustrate several (3?) different patterns in use simultaneously and alongside temperate clothing. I have no provenance on the card but I suspect it may be NW frontier. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 18 December , 2008 Share Posted 18 December , 2008 Interesting thread, even if my head hurts reading it (I'm sure I will get clearer...). I throw this into the mix as my only bit of KD. It has nice leather GS buttons, and I have assumed (rightly, I guess) that it's postwar (the uniform behind it is a WW2 bush jacket, by the way). My query related to the false pocket flaps added to the skirts - I guess a sartorial indulgence. Has anyone encountered these on wartime KD? [NB Should have looked more carefully at the legend that goes with the diagrams, mentioning that pockets could be added; still, I guess the question still stands...] Cheers Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 24 April , 2017 Author Share Posted 24 April , 2017 One to give this a bump - a recent addition to the collection at a bargain price via a misidentified Ebay listing : https://postimg.org/image/tqkd84ksd/ https://postimg.org/image/v3liu7gl9/ https://postimg.org/image/p8psa02n5/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 24 April , 2017 Author Share Posted 24 April , 2017 https://postimg.org/image/jpx67a6cd/ https://postimg.org/image/7sfrcepc1/ https://postimg.org/image/vkek99b6b/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 24 April , 2017 Author Share Posted 24 April , 2017 https://postimg.org/image/jvbrrvhsf/ With matching trousers: https://postimg.org/image/e2xd1uvm5/ https://postimg.org/image/nxu4u604b/ https://postimg.org/image/ruo6k3nhl/ https://postimg.org/image/moay5jup7/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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