Tropical jacket and trousers - suitable for WW1 or not?

[4thGordons]

While you are thinking about this Joe (and Andrew et al) could I ask for an opinion on this jacket (actually two almost identical jackets) that I have had knocking around for ages and am unsure of their age, although I suspect they are WWII vintage.

They are KD and similar to Andrews although with stand collars (two hooks and eyes).

One has long service stripes on the lower arm

One has had a corpral's stripe (?) removed from the right arm.

They have dressing pockets at the bottom right (front)

Both are ink stamped with what appear to be names/numbers (naval?) on the inside of the left lapel

They are virtually identical to much more modern Royal Marine KD tunics but would appear to me to be of at least WWII vintage but possibly (hopefully! ) earlier. I know nothing at all about Marine/Naval uniforms so please pardon my ignorance.

The only reason I hold out hope for an earlier date is the paper/laquered label in one (B287?) specifying height,chest and collar. Other than this in one (and the name stamps in both) I can find no markings whatsoever. The high collar also struck me as odd for a later date.

Picture attached, I tried to combine them - if close ups are needed let me know

Thanks

Chris

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

Hi

Here is my WW1 NZ made set as a Mounted Field Ambulance.

Mine has Scolloped pockets rather than the ones you have shown.

Is Straight pocket flaps more of a later thing?

Jonathan.

[grantsmil]

While you are thinking about this Joe (and Andrew et al) could I ask for an opinion on this jacket (actually two almost identical jackets) that I have had knocking around for ages and am unsure of their age, although I suspect they are WWII vintage.

Looks as though I have a third.

I am also unsure as to the date of this jacket. I was leaning towards it being post WW1 mainly because of the colour. Yet at the same time it does have several characteristics that tend to make it appear to be of WW1 manufacture.

I would also be grateful to anyone who can identify an era for this jacket.

[grantsmil]

The attached images ar of a WW1 service dress jacket and shorts. The jacket has the straight pocket flaps, and it appears to be dated November 1917.

The shorts are very simple and have three 3" belt loops, and a single pocket on the right.

The colour in theses images is not very accurate, I will look for a better image.

[grantsmil]

The 1917 dated tunic.

[Joe Sweeney]

Hi

Is Straight pocket flaps more of a later thing?

Jonathan.

Jonathan,

Straight pocket flaps came out before WWI--in 1906 (and also possibly in India pattern KD) if memory is serving me right. Yours looks like an earlier pattern--still manufactured into WWI. There were at least two or three pattern iterations after 1900.

The scalloped pockets also made a reappearance with the simplified KD, which had (for the most part) scalloped pocket flaps, Stand collar and plain cuffs. There is also a great deal of variation bewteen patterns.

Joe Sweeney

[Joe Sweeney]

Chris/Grant,

I don't know enough about KD to tell if they are WWI or Post war or not from the photos.

My initial gut reaction is always post war but that is only a guess.

Are there any other remains of WD stamps?--that is an unusual stamp in the 17 dated frock.

Is there a felling stitch around the armhole? (I don't think this is a concrete way to determine WWI or not)

Grant,

Are the shorts dated?

Joe Sweeney

[grantsmil]

Joe,

There are no marks on the shorts at all. They came with the 17 dated jacket. The only other marks on the material of the jacket are two large penciled '32's, and an ink stamp of a no. '12' which I took to be a lot number of the material. These are on the inside of the front of the jacket.

Felling stitch?

As far as I can tell the sleeves are sewn into the body of the jacket by folding the two parts of the material together and securing it with two rows of machine stitching.

[Grovetown]

I also believe that the tunics should have two rear vents to be war time items, as opposed to one for post- (courtesy Wainfleet, and I have some diagrams somewhere).

I've dug out mine (first: square pocket flaps, stand and fall collar, plain cuffs. Second: simplified - 15 dated label: pointed pocket flaps, upright collar, plain cuffs) and they're both two-vented (and both share the same sleeve attachment stitching).

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

[4thGordons]

I also believe that the tunics should have two rear vents to be war time items, as opposed to one for post- (courtesy Wainfleet, but no other reference).

The plot thickens - mine have no rear vent.

Chris

[Grovetown]

And herewith the diagrams mentioned - I have no idea who drafted them (or how I came by them).

Typically, one of mine conforms to none of those shown. It has the full length frontal seam - tapering toward the buttons and crossing the dart - of the top type; but only one dart and plain cuffs. It also doesn't have a fishtail back-panel - more a narrow rectangular one (similar in appearance - but wider - to the pleat on a Ben Sherman).

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

[Andrew Upton]

This is turning into quite a fascinating thread!

Thanks for everyone's replies and suggestions - my jacket in particular looks virtually to the 1917 example posted by Grant, even down to the similarly styled markings. Mine has no military markings, and given the survival of the other stamped markings, I'm now leaning towards it being a cheaply made private-purchase version, at least of a style likely or certainly used during the Great War, if not exactly datable to that period.

Attached below is a picture from "British Tommy" by Martin Pegler, 1996, page 31. Their trench-caps date the picture from 1916 onwards. Caption reads (my emphasis):

Despite the heat of European summers, no special hot-weather clothing was issued. These two Royal Engineers wear BOTH examples of tropical service tunics and issue shorts. The man on the right has a gold wound stripe underneath his service chevron. The practice of wearing shorts had originated in India before the war. (Richard Dunning).

This is why I was uncertain if my tunic was of a WW1-period style, until I saw the much earlier post, which prompted me to make the enquirey, wheras as we have seen there is clearly a lot of scope for variation!

[Andrew Upton]

And herewith the diagrams mentioned - I have no idea who drafted them (or how I came by them).

Typically, one of mine conforms to none of those shown. It has the full length frontal seam - tapering toward the buttons and crossing the dart - of the top type; but only one dart and plain cuffs. It also doesn't have a fishtail back-panel - more a narrow rectangular one (similar in appearance - but wider - to the pleat on a Ben Sherman).

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

And in my cross-posting, on the one hand it would seem to date my tunic post-WW1, but on the other it does not seem to list the version shown on the right hand soldier in the picture I just posted!

However, given the single collar dart and the various other observations, it seems more and more likely that my grouping is of post-WW1 date, but of a style close enough that it would make very little difference, and would still be very suitable for WW1 reenactment.

[Grovetown]

BOTH examples of tropical service tunics

Martin's not quite on the money there as the square pocket flap type was definitely worn.

For interest, herewith detail of the labels of the 'Simplified Frock' and the KD trousers, showing buttons too.

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

[tocemma]

Hello all,

The first pattern KD jackets should have pointed upper pocket flaps. If you care to visit the Regimentals website

there are some images of a first pattern jacket which was formerly in my collection.

This had the small size field dressing pocket inside and was in most respects similar to the pattern worn during the Boer War. The only major difference between the two patterns is that the WW1 tunic has the stand and fall collar whilst the Boer war version has just a stand collar. The Boer War version also had a pocket for the identification card which was then issued (pre dating Identity discs which came in 1906)

Recently sold was another first pattern jacket which had been unit converted to Scottish cut-away pattern.

I also sold a spine pad, helmet curtains of differing types and OR's shorts and breeches. The latter being the only issue KD breeches I have seen in 36 years of collecting.

Unfortunately I did not photograph the items before parting with them but I will speak to Malcolm at Regimentals and try to post some of the images.

The rectangular pocket flaps always indicate Indian manufacture on earlier tunics. They were not manufactured in this fashion by UK firms until post WW1. Others have already mentioned the difference in colour in the later manufactured and most post war Indian made KD. It is of a much lighter and greyer shade of khaki. The early WW1 KD was a distinct and fairly consistent russet shade, some of almost orangey brown when new.

The above is based on my collecting experience over a number of years and observation of examples in collections both private and national during this time. I have owned most variations of KD and have had several Boer War items as well including a complete head to foot rig of a private in the Glosters.

Incidentally the Regimentals site also shows a typical WW1 conversion of an Officer's tunic which was worn by a Sgt in the ASC, and an ASC drivers dust coat.

Hope this is of interest and Happy New Year to you all

regards

Paul

[Joe Sweeney]

Grovetown,

Thanks for getting in, the clincher would be the vent. Did not think of nor can I make it out on my computer. The drawing is very good.

All,

I think this complements what Paul posted and pretty much lines up and Paul thanks for confirming the India pattern of straight pocket flap. I wrote most of this prior to seeing your post.

FYI,

I’ve never really delved too deep in KD before so I went back for a quicklook. There is no such thing as a quicklook when looking up something with the nomenclature of Frock especially if you go back fairly far and I went back to 1894. Not too much detail—unfortunately I’m missing one pattern description and I don’t have any India Pattern descriptions. I’m wondering if the difference, at certain points in time, between Indian pattern and British Pattern is in the style of pocket flap? A change in pocket the style of a pocket flap would usually be considered fairly major. I suspect straight flaps are India, although I had thought that British pattern had these too but the RACD pattern books aren't bearing that out..

Here is a short condensed history of KD frocks and it's a pretty good closed loop pattern reference series..

All of these patterns have a corresponding Highland version.

3969/1894—As far back as I went --Introduction of Universal KD Frock.

Minor iteration until 1900

3969e/1900—— Change---waistband removed, two hooks added, Division inside right hand breast pocket abolished, Flaps of Pockets altered in shape, Shape of cuff altered (pointed) and double stitched around the edge; the shoulder strap is machined all round but is sewn onto the garment by hand.

Could not find any pattern up dates until pattern 1903, but could easily have missed something.

5875/1903—New pattern introduced—No description as I seem to be missing the pertinent 6 month period in 1903, However, I believe that the stand and fall collar was introduced.(?), but in general it appears to follow 3969e/1900.

5875a---Aug 1906 --removed ID card in pocket

5875b/1908—Metal titles instead of Embroidered titles

8226/1915--March 1915 First pattern Simplified KD introduced.

March 1917 instructions issued that Shoulder straps of pattern 5875b would be machine sewn on instead of hand sewn.

July 1918 Committee approved pattern—new revised simplified pattern.

1924—KD to be made in new shade of KD drill and in India Pattern. Changes made to Committee approved pattern.

Hope this helps,

Joe

[Grovetown]

Thanks Joe.

Paul reminded me too that my square pocket flap example was Indian. Of all the uniform, equipment etc etc; an India pattern period KD is not a problem to me as a collector - as opposed to other Indian army items - as, obviously, regulars flooded out of India to Egypt/ MEF etc wearing Indian pattern uniforms that wouldn't have required changing; and there are lots of pix of them being worn.

That's not to belittle the Indian army BTW, it's just not in my sphere of interest...

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

[Joe Sweeney]

Thanks Joe.

Paul reminded me too that my square pocket flap example was Indian. Of all the uniform, equipment etc etc; an India pattern period KD is not a problem to me as a collector - as opposed to other Indian army items - as, obviously, regulars flooded out of India to Egypt/ MEF etc wearing Indian pattern uniforms that wouldn't have required changing; and there are lots of pix of them being worn.

That's not to belittle the Indian army BTW, it's just not in my sphere of interest...

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

Grovetown,

Indian would not bother me either--never really collected KD. My KD is confined to a single simplified frock and KD trousers made before 1906--still has the exposed fly button and old waistband type. Also two Wolesley helmets--one 1914 dated and issued in Italy and a 1917 dated one--not much.

This thread has probably become the single best source of info on KD frocks anywhere. Andrew thanks for the question.

Joe Sweeney

[Grovetown]

This thread has probably become the single best source of info on KD frocks anywhere. Andrew thanks for the question.

Indeed probably the case.

Don't collect the stuff much myself - just limited to 'representative' examples of the India Pattern tunic, the Simplified Frock; Trousers and two Wolseleys - one 1915 RE ORs, and an officer's.

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

[Andrew Upton]

This thread has probably become the single best source of info on KD frocks anywhere. Andrew thanks for the question.

, thank yourself Joe for your reply to the earlier thread that prompted my question!

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

Hi

This has been a great thread.

I have learnt more than in years of collecting, in just a few days from all this thread.

Here is a photo of mine showing NZ Mounted Signal Troopers overseas WW1.

Simplified Frock left, early pattern in the centre, and not sure what is right? it has no V cuff- Gauntlet cuff but and SD collar

I have not found any pictures to date of NZers wearing the Square pocket style.

I only have the set shown, I would like to have more in my collection.

But WW1 kds do not come up for sale very often.

Jonathan

[4thGordons]

Wow - to echo everyone above, this has been incredibly informative to me.

Below is a modification of the diagram posted to reflect what I have, which if I have understood correctly is being described as an India(n?) Pattern. No vents, no collar pleats, three rear seams. It appears that this is the same as Grant's

Grant could you confirm this?

Thanks again to everyone who has posted in such detail (esp Andrew/Joe for getting this going)

Cheers

Chris

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

Hi all

Here is a pair of WW1 Pantaloons, Breaches that belonged to a K.I.A New Zealander.

Made of khaki Drill.

I tried to add a Picture of the back of them, I am only allowed to post postage stamps.

Why can other people upload nearly 500k pictures but me only over 100k?

Jonathan.

[4thGordons]

I had a scan through a few photos for examples I had to see what I have learnt.

These seem to demonstrate a degree of variability! Any ideas on the fourth one? Closeup added. Shoulder (rifle?) patches (over two pleats) have not been mentioned, collar design also seems a bit different... and no insignia anywhere(buttons are GS) odd canvas belt

I wondered if perhaps this is some sort of colonial police (or other) uniform from the 20s/30s?

Chris

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

Hi

Here is a Unusual KD tunic taken July 2nd 1915 Apia Samoa of a NZ Medic, from my collection

No top pockets

2 pleats at the collar.

Stand collar

bottom pockets

Jonathan