French Burials

[Fleur]

Hi all,

Andy (him in doors) has asked me to post a question up here for him.

Whilst at Hill 62 on Sunday, he noticed on the stereoscope pics that there were some of French soldiers being buried with upturned wine bottles over the head area.

What he wants to know is, what's that all about???

I haven't got the foggiest and neither of us have ever read any thing about this strange act. Can anyone enlighten us??

Fleur

[AOK4]

The Germans also had a habit of burying bottles with the death or putting them inside monuments. There is often a personal text in the bottle about the man or about the monument. I guess it must be something like this?

Jan

[Paul Reed]

It is normally the details of the soldier buried there - some years ago at a British cemetery on the Somme, made by the Germans to bury British soldiers who died of their wounds in a German ADS, a row of graves had to be moved due to subsidence. When the bodies were exhumed, they were all in coffins and all had a bottle with a piece of paper saying who they were.

This begs a question for 'lost' German cemeteries on the Somme (and elsewhere) - does this mean these men are identifiable?

[Guest Hill 60]

This begs a question for 'lost' German cemeteries on the Somme (and elsewhere) - does this mean these men are identifiable?

This is a very interesting point, it could lead (eventually) to a lot of 'lost' men being 'found' and given the burial they deserve.

I presume this practice was not out of some religeous belief but out of common-sense?

[Fleur]

Aha!!

Now THAT makes sense and is totaly logical thinking about it (message in a bottle).

Don't know why that didn't occur to me on Sunday - must have been the hangover!

LOL

Thanks ever so much guys - I knew you'd be able to help me out

What a bunch of stars you all are!

Fleur

[AOK4]

This begs a question for 'lost' German cemeteries on the Somme (and elsewhere) - does this mean these men are identifiable?

This is a very interesting point, it could lead (eventually) to a lot of 'lost' men being 'found' and given the burial they deserve.

I presume this practice was not out of some religeous belief but out of common-sense?

It was only done for soldiers who got a more or less official burial on a cemetery. Battlefield burials were more or less thrown in a pit and buried and didn't get the bottle. If people who witnessed the burial were left, they reported the circumstances and the app. place. The Germans then wrote everything in a sort of register of the missing. They intended to do a search for these men once the war was over. Unfortunately the registers were to be handed over after the war and it seems nothing much was done with them. I've seen the registers for Flanders while researching about the German military cemeteries.

Jan

[Paul Reed]

This is quite true Jan, and I was thinking of cemeteries rather than battlefield burials. At Courcelette was a large German cemetery with more than 2000+ burials. It was destroyed by shell fire in 1916 and never reconstituted; a few British burials were removed, but the cemetery seems to have been basically 'ploughed up'.

Given that it was the same German medical unit which buried those at Courcelette, as those mentioned above, then all 2000+ should still be there, six foot in the ground in wooden coffins, with details of who they are.

But would the French government ever allow such a large exhumation of the dead -German daed - because it would only be the tip of the iceberg?

[AOK4]

Well Paul,

First thing to do would be to find the old register of the cemetery (the Volksbund has all the old registers of France IIRC until recently in Pérenchies, but I believe they were moved to Kassel) and then look if all the men were really not reburied. I know that the French government worked hard, even shortly after the war, to concentrate the German war cemeteries and give all the German war dead a decent burial, much unlike the Belgian government that let the German cemeteries decay until the Germans took over themselves around 1928.

It might be possible that the graves were exhumed and reburied elsewhere by the French around 1919-1923. Did you check the old register?

Jan

[Will O'Brien]

I know that the French government worked hard, even shortly after the war, to concentrate the German war cemeteries and give all the German war dead a decent burial, much unlike the Belgian government that let the German cemeteries decay until the Germans took over themselves around 1928.

Out of interest Jan any reason for this happening to German cemeteries in Belgium?

[AOK4]

Well, I guess anti-German sentiment in Belgium was running high... That Belgium was not living up to the conditions of the Versailles Treaty was apparently not their concern (all war graves had to be treated with respect according to the treaty). They also had removed all allied burials in 1919-1920 or something, which were the only graves that were upkept until their removal.

People who owned or used the land on which German war graves were to be found only were paid in 1929 or something (off course for the years since the war then but you understand the problems).

There were letters written to King Albert about the condition of the cemeteries (goats living on them and the field used to dry the laundry).

Another problem I encountered: some family wanted to sell their lands, from which a part was a cemetery. So the Belgian government had to intervene and forbid the selling because of the cemetery.

The caretakers were often invalided Belgian war veterans which could explain the limited interest. But off course one man could bring the cemeteries, often seriously destroyed during the war, in a decent state after a few years of neglect.

Jan

[Paul Reed]

It might be possible that the graves were exhumed and reburied elsewhere by the French around 1919-1923. Did you check the old register?

Thanks for that Jan - I didn't know these had survived. Perhaps I can put out mutual friend Alex onto this one for me?

[Will O'Brien]

Well, I guess anti-German sentiment in Belgium was running high... That Belgium was not living up to the conditions of the Versailles Treaty was apparently not their concern (all war graves had to be treated with respect according to the treaty). They also had removed all allied burials in 1919-1920 or something, which were the only graves that were upkept until their removal.

People who owned or used the land on which German war graves were to be found only were paid in 1929 or something (off course for the years since the war then but you understand the problems).

There were letters written to King Albert about the condition of the cemeteries (goats living on them and the field used to dry the laundry).

Another problem I encountered: some family wanted to sell their lands, from which a part was a cemetery. So the Belgian government had to intervene and forbid the selling because of the cemetery.

The caretakers were often invalided Belgian war veterans which could explain the limited interest. But off course one man could bring the cemeteries, often seriously destroyed during the war, in a decent state after a few years of neglect.

Jan

Jan many thanks for the explanation..........to be honest I was a bit surprised by your comments at first, but after giving it some thought it makes perfect sense.

I am truly lucky to be born of a generation which has not had to live through such traumatic times & thus I have never had to deal with the type of feelings that many Belgians must have felt towards their former occupiers.