philg Posted 14 December , 2006 Share Posted 14 December , 2006 Just a quickie, trying to find out about this chap who was killed 15 June 1918. He was awarded the MM, but I can't find him in the Gazette. Am I right in thinking he should be mentioned in there? cheers Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 14 December , 2006 Share Posted 14 December , 2006 The Gazette search is "disconnected" at the moment. It is not working, full-stop. Yes, he should be in there. Somewhere... I have a couple of databases at home that he may be on.... Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armoured Farmer Posted 14 December , 2006 Share Posted 14 December , 2006 Phil, I'll be in Birmingham Central Library in the morning and can look him up the old-fashioned way in the Gazettes there. Hugh PS 23rd Div Sig Coy RE lawrence_sj.pdf MIC for his medals has an incorrect spelling of his surname: - Medal card of Laurence, Sydney J Corps Regiment No Rank Royal Field Artillery 48145 Driver Royal Engineers 311498 Driver http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1 That for his MM: - Medal card of Lawrence, S J Corps Regiment No Rank Royal Engineers 311498 Sapper http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...resultcount=168 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 14 December , 2006 Share Posted 14 December , 2006 Sydney Lawrence's M.M. was announced in the Gazette of 17-12-1917 (Issue 30431, page 14): 311498 Spr. S. J. Lawrence, R.E (Fulham). Probably won whilst the 23rd Division was at Ypres. Perhaps at either the Battles of Menin Road or Polygon Wood in September 1917. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philg Posted 15 December , 2006 Author Share Posted 15 December , 2006 Thanks for the info gents, and Hugh thanks for the offer but don't go out of your way, it's not urgent. cheers Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armoured Farmer Posted 16 December , 2006 Share Posted 16 December , 2006 Phil, Not much to add. He isn't in The National Roll of the Great War, nor is he in De Ruvigny's. His entry in the Granezza British Cemetery Memorial book is the same as on the CWGC. The only thing to add to Steve's post is the page number for his MM is 13192, 14th page of that London Gazette Issue Cheers Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 19 May , 2022 Share Posted 19 May , 2022 (edited) His MIC, and medal roll give his surname as Laurence. His BWM is spelt Laurence. 1915 star roll (Dvr. 48145 RFA) too: His MM index card, LG entry, soldier's effects (SYDNEY JONES LAWRENCE) and CWGC state Lawrence. London Gazette entry (17 Dec 1917): https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30431/supplement/13192 CWGC entry: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/638819/s-j-lawrence/ states he was a son of the late Lawrence Lawrence and Mrs Isabella Lawrence. Address 32 Dawes Road, Fulham, SW6. Aged 21 at death on 15th June 1918, so born 1896-97. CWGC give his religion as Jewish. The spelling error is understandable, but I'm finding it hard to locate him or his parents on the 1901/1911 censuses. Â Edited 19 May , 2022 by Ivor Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 19 May , 2022 Share Posted 19 May , 2022 (edited) An Isabella Lawrence was living at 94 Lillie Road, Fulham from 1908-1930 on the electoral rolls, but this does not match the CWGC address (1930): SDGW states that he was born at Mile End and enlisted at Chelsea (c.1915). 32 Dawes Road is near Chelsea and Lillie Road. Edited 19 May , 2022 by Ivor Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 19 May , 2022 Share Posted 19 May , 2022 (edited) Sapper Edwin Bignell 311501 (Formerly 39781, R.F.A.) died the same day as Sydney Lawrence - 15th June 1918. He was also with 23rd Division Signal Co. RE: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/56186648/edwin-bignell He was from Chelsea (b.1895) and enlisted in Chelsea with the RA. They are buried side by side in Granezza British Cemetery, Italy. Edited 19 May , 2022 by Ivor Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 19 May , 2022 Share Posted 19 May , 2022 (edited) Grave of Sydney Jones Lawrence - Plot 2. Row D. Grave 11. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/56186723/s-j-lawrence The Second Battle of the Piave River, between 15 and 23 June 1918, was a decisive victory for the Italian Army against the Austro-Hungarian Empire during WW1. Edited 19 May , 2022 by Ivor Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 19 May , 2022 Share Posted 19 May , 2022 (edited) Sydney Jones Lawrence was registered to vote at 32 Dawes Road, Fulham in 1918 (Ancestry): Edited 19 May , 2022 by Ivor Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Atkins Posted 19 May , 2022 Share Posted 19 May , 2022 (edited) Re the action for his MM, I tried the 23 Signals Coy War Diary. Alas, it is notably laconic! But there is a one-word entry, "Battle", on 20th September 1917- couldn't see any obvious Appendix or other more extensive reference. I appreciate that this isn't much help with a single MM award, but hey. Cheers, Pat Spoiler  Edited 19 May , 2022 by Pat Atkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 19 May , 2022 Share Posted 19 May , 2022 Thanks Pat. Yes, 20th September was the start of the 'Battle of Menin Road Ridge' and 23rd Division were involved: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Menin_Road_Ridge "The 23rd Division was held up for a short time by a German strong point in Dumbarton Wood, which had been missed by the barrage and caused many casualties. Despite the delay and the difficulty of navigating through clouds of dust and smoke caused by the barrage and the marshy ground north of Dumbarton Lake, the first objective was reached a few minutes after the barrage and consolidated along the source of the Bassevillebeek. The 69th Brigade on the left managed to get through Inverness Copse but German troops emerged from cover and fired on the troops behind as they moved up to attack the second objective, causing severe losses, before they were killed or captured. The troops, who had been severely reduced in numbers following on through the Copse, were still able to capture a line of German fortifications along Menin Road, north of the hamlet of Kantinje Cabaret. Of four tanks attached for the attack along Menin Road, one bogged early and the infantry advance was too swift for the other three tanks to keep up. A tank was knocked out on the road and the other two carried ammunition and equipment to the troops at the final objective." 20th September was roughly 3 months prior to the MM gazette entry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 19 May , 2022 Share Posted 19 May , 2022 X Corps A&QMG War Diary (TNA) has some MM lists for September 1917, but I do not see Lawrence mentioned: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 19 May , 2022 Share Posted 19 May , 2022 (edited) October 1917 A&QMG WD (appendix B):Â The National Archives' reference WO-95-859-6_001.jpg There he is second on MM list 284 (14 Oct 1917) for 20-26th September 1917 - the Battle of Menin Road: Edited 19 May , 2022 by Ivor Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Atkins Posted 19 May , 2022 Share Posted 19 May , 2022 Brilliant - well done, Ivor! Phew. I wonder if that imprecise date suggests a period of outstanding - and brave - work, rather than a single act of gallantry? In the fighting in Flanders that Autumn signallers are widely reported as repairing broken cables under fire, with the subsequent use of runners when this couldn't be effected. As an example, Roger Wood refers in passing to this in his PhD thesis when analysing command and control at brigade level in 23 Div on 20th September: "credit was given to the runners and Brigade Signal Company for their contribution in maintaining communications to and from brigade headquarters" (p.194). The Divisional Signal Companies were responsible for communications between Div HQ and Brigade HQs.* Anyway, good work Pat  *though I'm not sure if by Autumn 1917 there weren't separate Brigade Signals Companies, as this reference suggests; the Signal Service evolved dramatically over the course of the war.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Atkins Posted 19 May , 2022 Share Posted 19 May , 2022 (edited) Aha, Brigade Signals were (of course! I did in fact know this - at some time in the past...) provided by designated sections of the divisional Signals Company. From Brian Hall's Communications and British Operations on the Western Front 1914-18 (Ch. 1) Edited 19 May , 2022 by Pat Atkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 19 May , 2022 Share Posted 19 May , 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Pat Atkins said: I wonder if that imprecise date suggests a period of outstanding - and brave - work, rather than a single act of gallantry? The 'Battle of Menin Road Ridge' took place from 20 to 25 September 1917. So, probably for signals work under heavy fire during it. Along with fellow sapper Thomas O. Penny 311496 of 23rd Div Signal Co. - MM schedule no. 116203 (Lawrence's was 116202): Edited 19 May , 2022 by Ivor Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 19 May , 2022 Share Posted 19 May , 2022 Dumbarton Wood & Lakes are just south of the Menin Road on this Oct 1917 trench map: https://maps.nls.uk/view/101464912 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 20 May , 2022 Share Posted 20 May , 2022 (edited) Apart from his CWGC documents and a 1918 Electoral roll linking him to 32 Dawes Road, Fulham, IÂ still cannot find Sydney J Lawrence or his parents pre WW1? He has a pension card as Sydney Jones Lawrence on the WFA: https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61588&h=21804078&tid=&pid=&queryId=db23343e164fe338699f188d4b5e0dfa&usePUB=true&_phsrc=WWn2812&_phstart=successSource He is clearly named as Sydney Jones Lawrence on multiple sources - e.g. soldier's effects (Ancestry): Edited 20 May , 2022 by Ivor Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 20 May , 2022 Share Posted 20 May , 2022 His MM is listed in the British Jewry Roll of Honour page 172. His name is asterisked denoting that he was killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 20 May , 2022 Share Posted 20 May , 2022 Thanks Mark.  I've just noticed that his BWM was issued under his RFA no. 48145: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 20 May , 2022 Share Posted 20 May , 2022 15 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said: a 1918 Electoral roll linking him to 32 Dawes Road, Fulham From pension card at WFA/Fold3 = I know it is likely later dated [post- the original claim/award of 1919] but a pension card has been altered from 32 Dawes Road, Fulham, SW6 to 94 Lillie Road = hardly a great geographical relocation but perhaps a previous area of residence ??? M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 20 May , 2022 Share Posted 20 May , 2022 (edited) Thanks M. That confirms that his mother & siblings were living at 94 Lillie Road, as posted further up: I still don't understand why they do not show up on censuses? I can't even pinpoint his birth in 1896/7? Edited 20 May , 2022 by Ivor Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 20 May , 2022 Share Posted 20 May , 2022 (edited) FOUND THEM at 94 Lillie Road, Fulham in 1911. Sydney's age was transcribed as 23 (Ancestry): https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1911England&indiv=try&h=1221560 Edited 20 May , 2022 by Ivor Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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