Barry Hayter Posted 12 December , 2006 Share Posted 12 December , 2006 Thanks to this forum I have had the pleasure of getting in touch with a relative I have never met before ... and apart from a family tree knew little of. Even more exciting is the news that her Brother still has the Officers sword belonging to my Great Grandfather. He lives overseas and is apparently rightly scared of technology so there is little chance of seeing an image of the sword for a few months yet ... i shall of course sit and rock gently whilst I wait! To keep me sane can anybody explain how such swords were allocated etc. Whilst he server 1888 - 1910 (to rank CSM) it was not until 9 Mar 1915 that he was promoted T/2/Lt (am I write in thinking that would be the time he was 'granted' a sword)? Where would his sword likely have come from? Would it be a newly made one? An ex Officers sword? From a stockpile at the regiment?!! Where there swords per rank or just one for the duration of service? Deep breath, and relax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 12 December , 2006 Share Posted 12 December , 2006 I'm looking at a photograph of the 1st Battalion Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) taken in Portsmouth in 1894 - it shows the various forms of dress worn by the battalion. In the photograph there are two senior NCOs wearing swords - the Quarter Master Serjeant and the Serjeant Major. These swords are of a different pattern to those worn by the officers (less ornate). It could well be that your great-grandfather wore a sword as a senior NCO - and subsequently wore a different sword as a 2nd Lt. Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 12 December , 2006 Share Posted 12 December , 2006 Thanks to this forum I have had the pleasure of getting in touch with a relative I have never met before ... and apart from a family tree knew little of. Even more exciting is the news that her Brother still has the Officers sword belonging to my Great Grandfather. He lives overseas and is apparently rightly scared of technology so there is little chance of seeing an image of the sword for a few months yet ... i shall of course sit and rock gently whilst I wait! To keep me sane can anybody explain how such swords were allocated etc. Whilst he server 1888 - 1910 (to rank CSM) it was not until 9 Mar 1915 that he was promoted T/2/Lt (am I write in thinking that would be the time he was 'granted' a sword)? Where would his sword likely have come from? Would it be a newly made one? An ex Officers sword? From a stockpile at the regiment?!! Where there swords per rank or just one for the duration of service? Deep breath, and relax. You do not say what arm of service. The CSM was only invented for infantry in 1913/14. Pre- 1910 in the infantry some NCOs and WOs would wear a sword in the more formal orders of dress. These would include Sergeant Major and Bandmaster [WO], QM Sergeant, QM Sergt i/c Orderly Room, Sergeant Drummer, and possibly the CSgt Instructor of Musketry. I believe their swords were regimentally-owned and went with the appointment. I believe officers had to purchase a sword on commissioning but I rather doubt if this continued through the war, on grounds of expense as much as anything else. This is [as you can tell] not my area of expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 12 December , 2006 Share Posted 12 December , 2006 I would think you`re right, Barry. The WOs sword would be a different pattern to the officer`s. His sword as a 2/Lt could have come from any of those sources. So long as it was of correct pattern for the regiment/battalion, I don`t think it would matter. The adjutant would be quick to point out a discrepancy! There was only one pattern of sword until he reached general rank. Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Hayter Posted 12 December , 2006 Author Share Posted 12 December , 2006 H'mmm, so we don't know which sword is still in the family it seems, I tend to think it would be the one he held at the end of the Great War (as a Lt Col). He was CSM with the REs up until 1910. 1914 back with the REs then RWF (Pioneers) 1917 - end ... would the RWF sword be different to the RE?!! Will I be able to tell the difference in terms of designs and did they tend to be engraved etc? Cheers all, great info as ever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 12 December , 2006 Share Posted 12 December , 2006 The RE & RWF swords were quite different. I suspect that his WO sword might have been from the stores and not privately purchased, and that the one in the family is his officer`s sword. It may or may not be privately engraved. Most weren`t. Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Hayter Posted 12 December , 2006 Author Share Posted 12 December , 2006 Cheers Phil, that's very interesting. So they would be different designed. Did they tend to be newly made or recycled from previous conflicts do you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 12 December , 2006 Share Posted 12 December , 2006 Cheers Phil, that's very interesting. So they would be different designed. Did they tend to be newly made or recycled from previous conflicts do you know? Newly made, but an old blade could be re-hilted if it was a family heirloom, say. Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob B Posted 12 December , 2006 Share Posted 12 December , 2006 Most newly commisioned officers were required to purchase a sword or even better to carry a family one, in most Regiments there were a pool held for issue when public duties were imminent and also for the joys of orderley Officer. In the case of the RSM and RQMS they, in my battalions case (Infantry) carried an Officers pattern sword. I do remember an Officer in the Black Watch (in 1976) carrying one that had been in the family since 1840 odd! Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Johnson Posted 12 December , 2006 Share Posted 12 December , 2006 If you look at wartime issues of The Times, there are lots of ads seeking to buy used officer's equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg1 Posted 14 December , 2006 Share Posted 14 December , 2006 There were differnt patterns according to arm or service as well. The cavalry had the 1908 pattern in OR and Officers versions. The RE and the RA had their own patterns and so did other units .The RA pattern was 'Gothic hilted' with swirled bars, the cavalry sword had a sort of basked hilt pierced for officers and solid for ORs Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riflegreen Posted 14 December , 2006 Share Posted 14 December , 2006 In this time frame NCO's would not have had swords overseas , when made up to an officer it was expected that the would supply his own private purchase sword , if infantry it would be the standard 1897 pattern sword or the regimental pattern An NCO would be issued with an NCO's pattern sword for ceremonial use and if ever reaching the lofty heights of RSM usually bought their own sword of officer quality or had a presentation sword . Officers originally took their sword with them overseas but later in the war it was suggested that the swords were returned home as they had no function in a trench . The number of swords returned home probably is the reason for us collectors finding so many WW1 period swords in good condition and readily available . Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Robertson Posted 17 December , 2006 Share Posted 17 December , 2006 The start of the second chapter of Lynn MacDonalds book "1915" touches upon the issue of swords which had not found their way back to the relatives of killed officers with the rest of their effects. Many letters were sent to " The Times" debating the reasons why they had gone missing and opinions seemed to be divided between the theory that they had been pillfered or that they had been lost in battle. Two extracts from two seperate letters are: "My late son's sword may have been picked up and forwarded to someone else. It is a claymore, No106,954 made by S.J. Pillin and embossed on it are the battles of the regiment and DCM from DFM." and "I am a fellow sufferer, having received the effects of my late son, admirably packed but minus the sword, to my great sorrow and disappointment" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 17 December , 2006 Share Posted 17 December , 2006 Must have been a lot of RAMC men bringing home swords as souvenirs! Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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