Haig a Homosexual

[ATM]

After having just viewed a link showed to me by Andrew Hesketh. It has made me curious about one thing. Why there are constant accusations that haig was homosexual? It seems nowadays that most military commanders have that accusation thrust at them. (Monty springs to mind.) Now I don't know for sure whether he was or not but, firstly, from what I have read of him, he doesn't sound like a homosexual, I am rather dull and not much of a ladies man and that seems to be enough to label Haig and thus me aswell. Secondly, what is the matter with being gay? (A rhetorical question perhaps) But how can it even be brought into consideration when criticising the man? It's just plain childish, or am I missing something in this debate? The only general who I think has been genuinley revealed to have been a homosexual that springs to mind is Hector MacDonald. Niall Ferguson in Empire has a little rant about Rhodes and Gordon being Homosexuals. Why even bother putting something like that into a book?

[Tom Morgan]

I don't think there are "constant accusations that H**g was homosexual". To be honest, yours is the first reference to the possibility that I have read.

Tom

[Jonathan Saunders]

I think regarding Haig it is a case of barking up the wrong tree, Rhodes I have no idea about and he was not British army so that lessens my interest in the man, Gordon, as I understand it, has had accusations (posthumously?) laid against him but as far as I am aware, with no proof.

[ATM]

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-battle...e/3rd_ypres.htm

http://www.johndclare.net/wwi3_winter_thesis.htm

The last link is courtesy of Andrew Hersketh. There have been several other mentions in books I have read about Haig being a Homosexual. I can't remember the titles or the authors. You are right, not constant, an exaggeration on my part, but I must have seen it in about 5 or 6 different sources.

[John_Hartley]

To be honest, yours is the first reference to the possibility that I have read.

Tom

A Google suggests that Denis Winter (in "Haig's Command - a reassessment") hints that Haig may have recieved his promotions because of homosexual superiors (with the obvious inference). I don't have the book so can't examine what the hint actually is.

As a more general point, I would agree with ATM that a man's sexuality seems irrelevent today, although in those times homosexuality was a crime punishable by imprisonment so there may have been "issues".

John

[Jonathan Saunders]

I believe Denis Winter's accusation is the only one by a "credible" source that is in the wide-public domain. Whilst from my viewpoint on Haig I thoroughly enjoyed "Haig: The Reassessment", I do not remember there being offered any strong evidence by Winter to support this specific theory.

[Tom Morgan]

Tom

A Google suggests that Denis Winter (in "Haig's Command - a reassessment") hints that Haig may have recieved his promotions because of homosexual superiors (with the obvious inference). I don't have the book so can't examine what the hint actually is.

It may be wrong to make the obvious inference, John. Homosexual superiors could well decide to promote young men they have taken a shine to, and the young men concerned might well take advantage of this. But that doesn't mean that the proteges are homosexual also.

Tom

[Steven Broomfield]

"Denis Winter was born in 1940, and read History at Cambridge University. He has written many books on various aspects of the First World War – many of them about Australia’s part in the war. Most reviewers say these books are accurate and reliable"

From the second link ATM posted.

Oh well - Haig's queer, then

[John_Hartley]

It may be wrong to make the obvious inference, John.

In deed, it may. Fell well below my usual ultra-PC standards, innit.

I blagged the "inference quote" from an on-line review (happy to cough to that - wouldnt want anyone thinking I was having original thought). The actual quote which I plagiarised was "Winter ascribes his promotion to the help of three allegedly homosexual superiors ‘attracted by the striking physique and blue eyes of a young Hussar’ (page 32) – the inference is blatant."

John

[uncle bill]

and his wife had a wee sprog during the war

[sitush]

and his wife had a wee sprog during the war

I have no opinion on the question but re: bearing a child & being homosexual, Uncle Bill the two are not mutually exclusive!

Haig had several children. I believe that his youngest is still alive. I knew one of his daughters - Xandra - but she died a few years ago. Mind you, one should not name-drop ... as Her Majesty said to me only the other day.

[Tom Morgan]

So far we have two pieces of writing to go on. One is from the Digger History Site and says;

He was described as "shy as a schoolgirl", was probably homosexual, was the product of the British Public School system and a different age and was both stubborn as a mule and stupid to boot.

There's no real evidence there, just venom.

The other says;

Winter ascribes his promotion to the help of three allegedly homosexual superiors ‘attracted by the striking physique and blue eyes of a young Hussar’ (page 32) – the inference is blatant.

But when you look at what is being said, you have a reference to "allegedly" homosexual superiors and an "inference" based on it - a sort of "double maybe."

There is real evidence that when H**g was in India, there were women who found him attractive. But no-one is suggesting that H**g was probably a woman.

Tom

[PhilB]

I have nothing to contribute to the Haig/was he a pervert debate. I do remember reading a proposition (Psychology of Military Incompetence?) that homosexuality, latent or otherwise, was sometimes (often?) channelled into martial aggression. I don`t know how much truth there is in it. Phil B

[Bernard_Lewis]

Haig a woman!? I'd never have believed it but if Tom says it then it must be true...

Isn't this another case of people jumping on a bandwagon? Though I can't recall names there are a number of famous people who have been accused of this after their deaths (some true but a lot open to interpretation).

Bernard

[Muerrisch]

This is hearsay, but on British Forces Broadcasting Service many years ago, there was a presenter who was said to be that way, and certainly sounded it. So one day a couple of young Paras went too far with name calling in a bar, so he laid them out. Turns out he was a WW II MC.

Haig's duty was neither to be straight, AC/DC or queer: it was to win the war.

Here's to Haig.

[uncle bill]

I have no opinion on the question but re: bearing a child & being homosexual, Uncle Bill the two are not mutually exclusive

it is where I come from twas tongue in cheek mon cher.

[spike10764]

I just think it's a shame to cast aspersions over a dead mans sexuality. If he was, he kept it pretty secret and thus did not want anyone to know.

If he wasn't then it's pretty poor way of maligning a dead man. I think I prefer the Lions/donkeys debate.....

[Max]

I am surprised that in this day and age we are actually discussing this. Does it really matter?

Andy

[Take on me]

1. It does not matter. His pvt affairs need not have effected his command.

2. It is not true, there is no evidence whatsoever to substantiate such a claim.

Some Generals certainly have been homosexuals however I do not think that Haig was one of them. Kitchener might have been, but once again, there is no evidence.

Jon

[delta]

Muck slinging of the highest order.

[Andrew Hesketh]

I don't think the thread starter is trying to sling mud or besmirch Haig's character - just read the measured tones of the question again.

The question is simply that in a couple of places, e.g. Winter, veiled comments / slurs have been made, so is there any evidence for this?

As far as I know, and several other posters say the same, the allegations are without foundation.

[squirrel]

I would concur with Mr Hesketh's considered reply.

[AndyHollinger]

This has got to be a new Low on the Hate Haig Hundreds ... I mean really. If you asked most Americans all those silly nick-names from boy's school were a bit "light" anyway ... it's bad enough that the French eat runny cheese ... but the English ... with their predeliction to ... hmmm ... well, "discipline" with birch rods ... harrumph ... To good ole' American eyes the whole continent is a bit flacky ... what with men wearing speedo suits and all.

I mean really. I will admit Lawrence and always thought Kitchener ... and maybe Gordon ... and half the German General Staff were all catching rather than pitching ... but Haig!?! Next thing you know and we'll find out Pershing walked on both sides of the line.

(are there any obtuse references I missed/)

This is indeed silly. Not VERY silly, but just silly. Where is cannibalism in the Royal Navy when you need it?

[ATM]

Thanks Mr Kesketh. I would just like to reiterate that I am in no way saying that Haig was a Homosexual or that there is any proof for it. I don't see what is the matter with being Homosexual either. What I was trying to ask was why do people stoop to such childish allegations. I find it pathetic. Also by what standards do they come to such a conclusion?

[Bob Coulson]

My two pennorth, having read quite a bit on the subject of Haig and his life and times I haven't come across any reference to homosexuality.

From his diary entries he seems to have cherished the times he got to spend with his wife during the war.

Bob.