British Intervention Force in Russia

[TonyE]

Immediately before the Intervention Force went to Russia in 1918 the army searched any Vickers or Lewis guns that were available chambered for the 7.62 x 54mm Russian round. Savage, Colt, Vickers and BSA were all approached and a number of guns obtained.

We know that when the force sailed they had with them 7.62mm Vickers and Lewis guns. What I would like to establish is whether any British units were equipped with 7.62mm Moisin Nagant rifles. It is known that certainly some of the American contingent were issued with M-N rifles in the UK when they passed through on their way to Russia as there were large stocks of these rifles here that had been manufactured in the US but held back after the revolution.

It would make sense for the intervention troops to be armed with Russian calibre weapons, but why have a mixture of .303 rifles and 7.62mm machine guns?

Picture shows rear sight of a Russian contract Lewis calibrated in Arsins or Russian Paces.

Regards

TonyE

[Simon Jones]

I know that the British forces sent to North Russia had a large compliment of NCOs and officers with the intention of forming Russian units and making use of the stockpiled supplies at Archangel and Murmansk. Presumably the Moisin Nagants were for these locally raised units. I am pretty certain that the British units used their own .303 weapons.

regards

Simon

[Pete1052]

I recall reading that when the Bolsheviks took over Russia they defaulted on paying for the Moisin-Nagants the Tsar had contracted to have made in the U.S. I believe Remington made many of them and in the '60s I recall seeing some American-made ones that were made by a company with "Edison" in its name, same as the light bulb inventor, stamped onto the breech.

I also recall seeing some M-Ns in the '60s with the hammer and sickle mark on them. I saw them in a store that bought from Interarms, so I believe they were Wehrmacht captures that we'd captured in War II, which later found their way into Interarms' hands.

Thousands of M-Ns were available in the U.S. in '18 and they are still not too hard to find. I believe some of the U.S. Army forces sent to Siberia in '18-'19 were armed with them.

In '43 when my late dad was conscripted, at the reception station station was an elderly master sergeant. When asked what his medal ribbons stood for, he named them, and when he got to the last one, the one he was proudest of, he said with emphasis, "...and this, gentlemen, is the ribbon of the 'Siberian Expeditionary Force!'"

[Pat Holscher]

US forces committed to Russia were armed with Mosin Nagants. They were withheld because of the Russian Revolution however, at least not initially (or at least not all of them). Imperial Russian inspectors actually rejected a lot of them for odd reasons, even though they perfectly well made.

[deadin]

Pete1052,

I believe that you may have mixed "Edison" up with "Westinghouse". I have owned both Remington and Westinghouse M-N's but have never heard of an Edison. (Of course, I have learned to never say never when it comes to firearms.

Dean

[Pete1052]

I have seen Westinghouse-marked Moisin-Nagants but I believe I've seen them marked Edison as well. It was three or four decades ago though.

As for Imperial Russia rejecting many American-made M-Ns, a history of Remington arms stated that the Imperial Russian Army had officers working on-site in the Remington factory as weapons inspectors. One was said to have been a huge Cossack officer who would take finished rifles out of the racks and deliberately smash the buttstock on the floor, cracking or breaking the stock. Evidently the Russians had a bullying way of reminding their contractors of who was boss!

REVISION: Two hours of searching with Google have failed to turn up any references to Edison-made M-Ns, so I concede Deadin's point that I must have confused Westinghouse with Edison.

[lassuy]

All US troops at Archangel were armed with the Mosin-Nagant, made either by New England Westinghouse or Remington. I'm not sure if US troops at Vladivostock were similarly armed, or if they retained their US rifles. I do recall that at least some of the British were armed the SMLE, and officers retained their Webley revolvers. Interestingly, the US officers were also armed with the Webley, presumably from British stocks.

As an aside, there's a great story about the aforementioned Russian officer---the gunsmiths at Remington tired of his constant interferance and breaking the stocks, so they conspired to get back at him. The officer, by the way, was testing whether or not the M-N rifles would fire accidentally, he'd place a cartridge in the chamber and then slam the butt to the floor to make sure the rifles didn't discharge (M-N's have a rather heavy trigger pull to avoid accidental discharge), sometimes breaking the wrist of the stock in the process. They filed the sear down to barely having any contact at all on one of the rifles, and when it went through the "test", it predictably went off---narrowly missing the head of said officer and going throught the roof of the Remington factory. Apparently, from the story I've read, the Russian officer got the message and quit his test to destruction methods.