Buried Near This Spot

[Peter Bennett]

Is there a criterion which differentiates the inscription "Buried Near This Spot" as opposed to "Known To Be Buried In This Cemetery"

I noticed this when visiting the Cemetery below.

Guemappe was captured by Commonwealth troops on 23 and 24 April 1917, twelve days after Wancourt. The village was lost on 23 March 1918 and retaken by the Canadian Corps on the following 26 August. Tank Cemetery was begun by fighting units in April 1917 and used by fighting units and field ambulances until June. It was damaged by shell-fire in 1918. The cemetery contains 219 burials and commemorations of the First World War. 25 of the burials are unidentified but there are special memorials to five casualties known to be buried among them. Six graves in Row A, identified as a whole but not individually, are marked by headstones bearing the additional words: "Buried near this spot".

[Terry Denham]

'Buried Near This Spot' means that the location is only known generally and may not be necessarily within the confines of the current cemetery wall or is known to be buried nearby. 'Known to be Buried in This Cemetery' means that it is known that the burial is within the current walls - probably one of the 'Unknowns'.

Here in Sussex, I know one headstone which reads 'Buried near this Churchyard' which suggests it is in land outside the current churchyard boundary.

[Peter Bennett]

Thanks Terry, it was a question I have been asked many times-now I know the definitive answer.

Peter

[Terry Denham]

My own uncle is a 'Buried near this Spot' man in Normandy.

His glider was shot down on D-Day and the casualties are buried 'somewhere' within what is now the CWGC cemetery.

[Peter Woodger]

I would not normally doubt Terry's word but he is saying that Known to be Buried in this Cemetery has more precision than buried near this spot. Buried near this spot occurrs in rows of burials the inference being near this Spot. Known to be buried in the cemetery is usually at the border or in a special designated area.

Are we assuming more rigidity in the rules than really existed? In another thread this morning we were dicussing Their Glory should not be blotted out appearing with Known to be Buried on the same stone.

In Redan Ridge 3 there are 13 memorial stones around the edge that say known to be buried but the notes for the cemetery say the graves were destroyed by Shellfire. Peter

[Terry Denham]

Peter

That is exactly what I was trying to say. However I agree about the lack of precision. There are many variations on this theme.

A 'Near this Spot' can appear anywhere. It simply means that the exact location is either unknown or no longer marked/accessible - whether within the cemetery or nearby - although there may be clues as in my uncle's case. The 'In this Cemetery' stones are usually at the edge or in a specific location but they have no geographic significance as the burial can be anywhere in the cemetery - usually amongst the 'Unknowns'.

There are also inscriptions such as 'Believed to be Buried in This Row'.

Also remember that these stones appear in churchyards and non-CWGC cemeteries where their positioning differs.

[Terry Denham]

Forgot to add that 'Near This Spot' does not necessarily mean 'Very Close to This Spot' - then, how close is close? However, I would presume that the 'Spot' headstones were placed as close as reasonably possible to where the burial was believed/known to be.

[Terry Denham]

In Redan Ridge 3 there are 13 memorial stones around the edge that say known to be buried but the notes for the cemetery say the graves were destroyed by Shellfire. Peter

These facts are not mutually exclusive.

Men known to be buried in the cemetery could have had their graves destroyed by shellfire. In reality, they may no longer have any graves but notionally they are still there!

[Peter Woodger]

Terry

I agree your last point, I was using it as an illustration of the imprecise rules since we could argue that the 13 stones should also of said Their Glory shall Etc.

Peter

[Le_Treport]

I've often wondered about the relationship between headstones and graves. Is it 100% for sure that for a regular headstone, the body is under the headstone?

I presume it is for the reasons in this and other threads. e.g. two or more names on one stone for the fact the bodies were 'entwined' (for want of a prosaic way of putting it!) Also the seemingly random stones in certain areas of open grass, such as at IIRC, Tyne Cot.

[Terry Denham]

The randomly placed headstones are usually the sign of an original battlefield cemetery - where shellholes/trenches have been used for burials. Many of these were cleared into concentration cemeteries but many still remain (as the centre of Tyne Cot).

The headstones were placed over original graves - usually replacing army provided wooden crosses so you can be fairly sure they mark the bodies. Multiple names on a stone signify a lack of space with two or more bodies in the grave, intermingled remains or a collection of parts of several individuals.

[Peter Woodger]

But there are examples where it is, in my opinion, beyond reasonable doubt that the headstone and the body do not match.

Take my favourite example. Redan Ridge 1 is a V corps cemetery made when they cleared that part of the Somme battlefield in the spring of 1917. Three long trenches were dug and the collected bodies were laid side by side, 57 in each of rows A & B and 40 in row C. The headstones touch each other in all the rows. The dates of death are exactly what you would expect for this case with the sole exception of J J Clifford of the Rifle Bde. His date of death is 30/08/1918, that is well over a year after the cemetery was made. The other deaths from his battalion on the same day are buried miles away and to compound it all Clifford is buried in A 52 in a trench containing 57. The possibility that a body was brought from miles away and happened to find a cemetery where by sheer chance an empty slot had been left in a tight row beggars belief. This is not an isolated case on the Somme.

Peter.

[Terry Denham]

I do not know about the case you cite but some bodies were moved many miles after the war. They were not moved to the nearest cemetery but to a designated open cemetery as the nearest may have been closed and turned over to CWGC.

Also, you will see that in certain cemeteries the row of headstones is longer than the row of graves. Well - you probably can't see that on the ground but you will see an explanation of the phenomenon in some of the original CWGC registers.

A row can have multiple occupancy graves but each soldier has his own headstone. This causes confusion as the number of the grave in the register does not match the number of the headstone if you start counting at one end!

[Peter Woodger]

Terry

I know of no evidence of a concentration into Redan 1 and how did Clifford get inside the Row? I mentioned this case on the phone to CWGC over a year ago and they said it looked dodgy and would send for the cemetery file. Silence has frustratingly reigned since. Peter

[Terry Denham]

Peter

You may be right. I said I knew nothing about the case you mention.

[keithfazzani]

A question - does your answers to the above indicate that British Soldiers were buried in "mass graves" albeit alongside each other. I had always believed perhaps erroneously that unlike other countries the British always buried their dead in single graves - I must admit I have always found this hard to believe - the practical and manpower issues alone would make this most unlikely. Perhaps someone knowlegeable out there can assist?

[roel22]

Keith, I think you'll find the answer in this thread

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...ic=3979&hl=

[keithfazzani]

Roel

Thanks