MGC - 89th Coy

[Martin Felstead]

Continuing on my quest for info re 7184 Cpl WH Godfrey MGC I decided to do a trawl through the NA MICs for all MGC numbers in the range 7160 - 7210. I then checked the 50 names against the CWGC database and got this :-

7180 Pte AE Atkins died 1/7/16 89 Coy MGC

7182 Pte J Hobbs died 30/7/16 89 Coy MGC

7195 Cpl J P Lewis died 18/10/16 89 Coy MGC

7196 Pte JW Millington died 18/10/16 89 Coy MGC

7198 Pte S Whittingham died 20/10/16 89 Coy MGC

Question 1

Do you think I can safely assume that my man was also in the 89 Coy?

Question 2

If the MGC Coys were the result of the consolidation of the battalions' MG sections how did my man get into this Division as he was previously No 22398 in a reserve Bn of the Loyal North Lancs Regt. and there were no Loyal Bns in the 30 Division? His low number must mean that he was one of the early MGC recruits.

Martin

[Retrac]

Martin, I had similar problems some time ago tracking my grandfather John Edwin Carter MGC 6615. He joined MGC in early 1916. There were 3000 original Motor Machine Gun Corp men, so take 3000 away from your numbers and you have their order of entry into the 'new' MGC.

Grandfather's intake were from a mix of regiments, numbered from 6610 to 6721 He was R Fus, others were from Lincs, Cheshires, Wiltshire, Worcs and about 10 more. They were listed and renumbered as an intake with CSM and Sjts first so 6610 E A Millward was a CSM, 6621 William White was 6621 A/Sjt and the remaining 100 were Private (in the main) and listed alphabetically.

Of this group 6626, 6630, 6637, 6658, 6665 were all killed in 1916 and recorded as being of 73MGC. Others who were killed later were in different units but I had made the assumption that this was because of later transfers, re-entry after wounds etc.

So, I would think that you can be fairly confident that your man was in the same Company as those who died, particularly as all the deaths were in 1916. I did have the additional lucky break that grandfather was mentioned in the 73 Coy MGC War Diary so useful confirmation.

Hope this is helpful

David

[Martin Felstead]

Grandfather's intake were from a mix of regiments, numbered from 6610 to 6721 He was R Fus, others were from Lincs, Cheshires, Wiltshire, Worcs and about 10 more. They were listed and renumbered as an intake with CSM and Sjts first so 6610 E A Millward was a CSM, 6621 William White was 6621 A/Sjt and the remaining 100 were Private (in the main) and listed alphabetically.

David

David thanks for the info. Here's the list of the men I looked up. You can see that they also are from a wide range of original units but there doesn't seem to be the sorting by rank that you refer to

[Martin Felstead]

Numbers 7160 - 7185

MGC_Numbers.doc

[Martin Felstead]

Numbers 7186 - 7210

MGC_Numbers_pt2.doc

[Retrac]

An interesting difference. Doesn't appear to be any logic to the list, other than the order in which they walked through the door. Any idea where they were trained? MGC had 2 bases in England, Grantham in Lincs and Clipstone in Notts. Perhaps the admin procedures were different. The war diary for 73 MGC says they were formed at Grantham in Feb 1916, mobilised 22 Feb and left Grantham 10th March, perhaps the other 89 Coy diaries give a clue.

Another thought, do the medal card dates of entering theatre of war indicate any difference between members of this group? The dates may be traceable to specific units or Divisions. You might need a few for a sample, but I'd have thought start checking date of entry of 89th Coy with your man's MiC to save money.

The Long Long Trail site gives 89th Coy as being formed in Grantham (no date) and joined 30 Div at Sailly Laurette 13th March 1916

David

[Martin Felstead]

An interesting difference. Doesn't appear to be any logic to the list, other than the order in which they walked through the door. Any idea where they were trained? MGC had 2 bases in England, Grantham in Lincs and Clipstone in Notts. Perhaps the admin procedures were different. The war diary for 73 MGC says they were formed at Grantham in Feb 1916, mobilised 22 Feb and left Grantham 10th March, perhaps the other 89 Coy diaries give a clue.

Another thought, do the medal card dates of entering theatre of war indicate any difference between members of this group? The dates may be traceable to specific units or Divisions. You might need a few for a sample, but I'd have thought start checking date of entry of 89th Coy with your man's MiC to save money.

The Long Long Trail site gives 89th Coy as being formed in Grantham (no date) and joined 30 Div at Sailly Laurette 13th March 1916

David

David

Thanks for your comments. I havn't looked at all the MICs (too expensive) but I did sample a few, incl my man, and all are undated, so post 31 Dec 1915. More circumstantial evidence to support an arrival time in France of early 1916. I'll have to get down to the NA for the 89 Coy Diary.

I did a similar exercise with his Service number for the Loyal N. Lancs too. This is clearly a reserve Bn as several of th emen close to him (by number) served (and died) in different Bns of the Regiment - 6th, 8th and 10th - in France and Iraq. Others ended up in the Labour Corps and ASC.

Martin

[Retrac]

Ok Martin, I'll still have a look at SDGW if I am allowed time this weekend twixt putting up tree, ordering turkey and entertaining grandchildren. If that fails I'll bring it back with me next week and have a dig through it then. It does look most likely to be 89th, given what you've got

David

[Retrac]

Martin

Had a quick look through SDGW and came up with the following

22380 Sellers W B 10th Loyal died 11/4/17

22379 Daley G 10th Loyal died 11/4/17

22367 Fryer T 1st Loyal

22357 Bretland J 10th Loyal died21/11/16

22405 Miller W 10th Loyal died 27/6/16

22458 Cookson F 10th Loyal died 12/8/16

22461 Wright W 10 th Loyal died 26/6/16

Hope this helps

David

[Martin Felstead]

Martin

Had a quick look through SDGW and came up with the following

22380 Sellers W B 10th Loyal died 11/4/17

22379 Daley G 10th Loyal died 11/4/17

22367 Fryer T 1st Loyal

22357 Bretland J 10th Loyal died21/11/16

22405 Miller W 10th Loyal died 27/6/16

22458 Cookson F 10th Loyal died 12/8/16

22461 Wright W 10 th Loyal died 26/6/16

Hope this helps

David

David,

Thx. That's interesting as I was thinking he was probably 11th Bn (K4 and didn't serve as operational Bn eventually becoming a Training Reserve unit). I suppose he could have been 10th Bn and on some sort of MG course when they sailed for France in July/Aug 1915. Then got transferred to MGC in Oct 1915 when it first came into being. The two Cpls, Godfrey and Hall, transferring in at the same time. We'll never know for sure....

My grandfather Kenneth Laing also served in MGC from 2/7/18 to 26/12/19 and I'm afraid that is all I know. He joined the Met Police in 1923 and this info is on his Police Service record. He went to Turkey (Constantinople) via Italy (Taranto) but only after 11/11/18 so there is no MIC and I don't know his number or anything else. Family legend is the he "looked after the horses". I guess he was in an MGC unit that was part of The Army of The Black Sea, but that whole period of history is not very well documented, or not that I have found anyway.