1/5 York and Lancs from Sept 1918

[Shep]

Hi all

I have transcribed some journal entries of my grandfather Cyril Shephard up to 26th August 1918 when he fell sick after being relieved from duty at Kemmel Hill...but I have come to a dead end with regards his service history as there were no more entries after that date.

I know he was captured wounded some time after October 13th as a Field Service postcard which was never sent was written with that date on it and he was OK at that point. I also have a German ID card with a Gottingen address on it which states that he was in 'C' coy., but no date.

What I need to find out now, is where was he from September 1918 and where was he captured? I can't find any more information on the whereabouts of the 1/5 York and Lancs after August 1918...any ideas where this info would be found? Any replies most gratefully received.

PS If anyone's interested, I'll post the transcript.

Many thanks,

Wendy

[Paul Reed]

Wendy, would be interesting to see his diary.

Below is a brief account of the 49th (West Riding) Division in the final stage of the war. This comes from a short history of the Division I wrote some time ago. 1/5 York and Lancs were part of them.

Gradually the division was rebuilt, and remained in the Ypres Salient until the late Summer of 1918. It then moved south to take part in the fighting on the Hindenburg Line and was initially in reserve. On 12th October, it took part in the Battle of the Selle, attacking the area around Haspres. The last battle saw the capture of Valenciennes, on 1st - 3rd November 1918. Total casualties during this final period of operations were 106 officers and 3,630 men.

At the end of the Battle of Valenciennes (1st/2nd November 1918), the 49th Division was relieved, and moved back to Douai on 5th November. It was still here when the war ended on the 11th, and remained in this area until early 1919. Demobilisation began in January 1919, and continued until March by which time the division had been reduced to a cadre. It was reformed in England in 1920.

Some sources I noted in the same account are:

DIVISIONAL HISTORY

Hughes, F.K. Lt-Col – A Short History of the 49th West Riding & Midland Infantry Division TA (The Stellar Press 1957)

Magnus, L. – The West Riding Territorials in the Great War (Kegan Paul 1920)

RELATED BOOKS

Williamson, B. – ‘Happy Days’ In France and Flanders with 47th and 49th Divisions (Harding & Moore 1921) [Padre, 49th Division]

The International Red Cross hold records of all WW1 and WW2 POWs and you can contact them for details. See their website:

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/archives

[Shep]

Paul,

thanks so much, that's excellent. I'll give the IRC a try too. My ol Dad will be so pleased.

here's the transcript - (sic throughout). Hope you enjoy reading it, not sure it's of particular interest to anyone but me! I'm amazed that he walked 12km to the FA with a bullet in his leg!

Extract from the WW1 Journal of

Pte Cyril R Shephard

Enlisted at LEICESTER on September 11th 1916 aged 17

OCTOBER 1917

Moved from BROCTON CAMP to RUGELEY

1918

19th JANUARY -Moved from RUGELEY CAMP to ASHFORD in KENT (53rd Northumberland Fusiliers)

FEBRUARY - Moved from ASHFORD to BARNARD CASTLE DL(J)? Barracks

MARCH- Scarlet Fever in our barracks room. Platoon isolated.

27th- Battalion under orders for France

30th- Coy. passed through bombing test.

31st- Coy. passed through gas chamber with SBR poisonous and asphyxiat

APRIL 2nd- Coy. left BARNARD CASTLE 6pm for DOVER

3rd- Arrived 4am FOLKESTONE

Left FOLKESTONE at 1.30pm. Arrived BOULOGNE at 4pm.

Left BOULOGNE at 8pm.

4th- Arrived at ETAPLES at 3am.

5th -Left ETAPLES at 7pm

6th- Arrived at BUSNES 7am. Hard marching.

Had breakfast in gutter of street. Iron rations.

Left BUSNES at 2pm, arrived at -----? .

Joined 1/5 NF at 4.30pm

8th- Left -----? at 7.30am

Arrived at -----? at 4pm

9th- Left -----? at 9am. Shelled whilst having dinner in a ploughed field.

Arrived at ESTAIRES (Reserve Line) 6pm

10th- Whilst moving up to reinforce front line, was wounded in legs by machine gun bullet. (6am)

Under heavy barrage of machine gun and shell fire. Walked 12 kilos to NORTHUMBRIAN FA at 12 midday. Left on GS wagon for CCS. Arrived at 54th CCS at 1.30pm

11th- Left 54th CCS at 12.30. Arrived at 59th Gen. ST OMER at 3am. Travelled in Motor Am.

12th- 10pm to 11pm. Air raid on ST OMER. Several bombs dropped. One landed 50yds from hospital and smashed windows.

15th- Evacuated 59th Gen. (too near line) at 5am by Amb train 41. Marked up for UK.

Arrived at BOULOGNE 2pm but did not unload. Proceeded to LE TREPORT 16th Gen USA Hospital.

Arrived at 4am.

May 4th- Left 16th Gen at 6.30. Arrived at No. 3 convalescent depot – LE TREPORT.

13th- Left No 3 Con depot at 5am and arrived at BASLE. ETAPLES 2pm. From time landed at ETAPLES to time of going away there were continual air raids nearly every night.

19th- Especially big raid, hospitals bombed. Many casualties in wounded and staff of hospital. (St.Johns).

28th- Left ETAPLES at 8pm fully equipped for the line to form Battn. On the Marne.

29th- Arrived at ROUEN 5pm. Thought we were just staying the night. Marched to D Depot 5 kilos from ROUEN and stayed for 6 weeks. Whilst there did trench and grave digging fatigues. Paid 5 francs a week.

June 14th- Visited ROUEN Cathedral. Many air raids during time I was there.

July 10th- Left ROUEN with a draft to join the 50th Division ETAPLES who had in meantime been severely cut up on the Marne.

11th- Arrived at ETAPLES

12th- Met GH Royce 2/Lt (brother in law)

August 4th- Left ETAPLES. Transferred to 1/5th YORKS AND LANCS.

Arrived 4 kilos far side of Watteu (WATOU)

6th- Arrived at PROVEN

7th- Left PROVEN for Break Camp.

8th- Left camp for line YPRES GORDON HOUSE.

9th- On patrol. Later in night digging on Front Line Parapet. Quiet night.

10th- On wiring party.

11th- Covering party for wiring party.

12th- On outpost lively night.

Bombed what we thought was German patrol but was just a case of ‘wind up’.

Woke everybody up all round. Excitement prevailed for a while.

13th- On ration party. Got straffed on MENIN ROAD going and coming back.

Rather a livelynight. Later at stand to we fired 50 rounds rapid. Jerry retaliated with trench mortars and whizz-bangs. A section of parapet blown up but no casualties. More work for the troops.

14th- Through one of our section going on leave I had to do another 24 hours on outpost. Hell on KEMMEL HILL that night. About 10am Jerry started crumping. Rather lively.

15th- Lying out in front of wire all night. Rather quiet but still crumping on KEMMEL HILL on our right.

16th- In morning gave Jerry a few more rounds rapid but got crumped all afternoon for it. Relieved at dusk.

21st- Sick (102 Field Amb.) ROUSBRUGGE BELGIUM.

26th- Left 102 Field Amb. Arrived 2nd CRS BOLLEZEELE FRANCE.

-end-

I'd be interested to know where ----? was on 6th April after BUSNES and why did he not write it in?

Cheers

Wendy

The_Great_War_Journal_of_Cyril_Sheppard.doc

[Paul Reed]

I'd be interested to know where ----? was on 6th April after BUSNES and why did he not write it in?

Cheers

Wendy

Thanks Wendy - an interesting snapshot of one man's service and useful for you to have!

I suspect he didn't put the place name in because he wasn't 100% sure where he was, perhaps?

[Shep]

Thanks Wendy - an interesting snapshot of one man's service and useful for you to have!

I suspect he didn't put the place name in because he wasn't 100% sure where he was, perhaps?

...Were my thoughts also. All that moving about, hard marching and breakfast in the gutter...I'd have been dizzy too.

I'll see if I can find out exactly where he was captured. He was pretty badly wounded - he maintained that a German surgeon saved his life, albeit without chloroform. He lost his right eye when a bullet shattered his face. It seems I have that German surgeon to thank or I wouldn't be here today!

W

[Mangham1]

Shep,

If you PM your e-mail address I can let you have some further information about the Battalion's movements in October.

Grant

[jeffw]

Wendy - I found it very interesting to read the transcript of your grandfather’s journal and particularly that he ended up in Gottingen POW camp.

The reason for my interest is that I have been researching my Gt Uncle (47275 Pvt Partington, Robert), who was also in the 1/5 Bn York and Lancaster Regiment. He joined from another regiment around September 1918 and was subsequently reported “Missing believed killed” on 13th October 1918.

You mentioned your grandfather was captured wounded, sometime after 13th October.

I have a copy of the 1/5th Y & L War Diaries for October and November and it looks likely he was wounded in the same action as my Gt Uncle, which took place on the 13th near to the village of Haspres (Nord-Pas-de-Calais). The Battalion then went into “Reserve” until the 1st November, when it went into action again until the 5th, south of Valenciennes, but sustained no further casualties.

The diary describes how on Sunday 13th October the 1/5th Y & L, (together with other units of the 49th Division), attempted to force a crossing of the Selle River, just south of Haspres. The attack failed and the 1/5th sustained 274 casualties, of whom 22 were listed wounded and missing. The War Diary states …our numbers being reduced by 50% or 60%, and the units on each flank being held up in a similar way…

It also mentions in Observation (4)

"The enemy was seen to be very quick in taking an opportunity to get in our wounded and appears to have collected a large number".

If you download the War Diaries for September and October, you will be able to follow the Battalion’s movements, to complete your grandfather’s journal, (at least to the 13th October).

The National Archives Office reference numbers are:

Cat Ref WO/95/2805, Image Ref 128

War Diary 1/5th York and Lancaster Regiment, October 1918

Cat Ref WO/95/2805, Image Ref 129

War Diary 1/5th York and Lancaster Regiment, October 1918

Cat Ref WO/95/2805, Image Ref 127

War Diary 1/5th York and Lancaster Regiment, November 1918

Hope this is of help to you in your research…

As I mentioned my Gt Uncle was reported missing, believed killed, on the 13th, but he didn’t survive and my family didn’t find out anything more about him, until his grave was found to be at Curgies, a place that was about ten miles behind the German front line at that time. I have been trying to find out where he might have been held, or what happened to him and the other wounded prisoners, but found nothing until reading your posting.

As well as reading of the good fortune that the German surgeon saved your grandfather’s life, it was interesting to see that he ended up as a POW in Gottingen, which is about 300 miles away from Haspres, so even at that late stage of the war it seems prisoners were being moved quickly to the POW camps…

If you ever recall any other snippets your grandfather mentioned about his treatment, conditions, incidents and journey to Gottingen - I would be very interested to hear.

Cheers

Jeff Walton

[Shep]

Hi Jeff

I'm glad you found the journal interesting. I still have to find the bit that's missing, it was hastily written on scraps of paper and it's somewhere!! I think (hope) my Dad has it, so I'll look next time I visit him.

I downloaded the War Diaries, thanks so much for pointing me to them. It seems there are two different versions - I have imgs 182, 183 and 184!?

Unfortunately I have no more information about the capture. All I have is the ID card. One can only wonder what happened to your Gt Uncle - my imagination says that they would have been marched to the nearest railway station behind the lines...who knows, but if I can find anything at all I'll let you know.

As is usual he hardly ever spoke of his experiences, but perhaps he was so 'out of it' that he wouldn't have remembered anyway.

He did say that Jerry treated him well but I can't imagine how awful it must have been on that journey to Gottingen. He must have had some first aid because his injuries were pretty severe. How he made it back home alive I'll never know. After he was repatriated, he had facial reconstruction operations over the next 3 years at Queen's Hospital in Sidcup, one of which was by the famous Sir Harold Gillies.

The date 13th October was an auspicious one for him and his family I'm sure...he lost his brother on that date three years before, at the Hohenzollern Redoubt.

Cheers,

W

Grant:

Many thanks for the info.

[Roger Thompson]

Hi there Wendy,

Just to add to Jeff's comments, have you looked on the Long Long Trail for behind the wire, its lists some of the soldiers captured, dates and where held.

Cheers Roger.

[Shep]

Thanks Roger! I sure have looked there. No banana I'm afraid.

The next step would be the ICRC but it could cost up to 130 euros for the search, with no guarantee that the information I seek is there. Well, I can't afford it, so I'll just have to keep looking elsewhere for now...still, I'm very pleased to have found, with the help of people here, most of the information I was looking for. Can't say I'm disappointed!

Cheers

W

[jeffw]

Hi Wendy -Thanks for expanding on your Grandfather’s story, what a terrible time he must have had! If you do find the bit that’s missing on the other scraps of paper and they reveal anything more about his journey to Gottingen, I really would be interested to hear.

I am currently researching other units as well as the 1/5th Y & L that took part in the action of 13th October 1918. It seems there were hundreds of casualties, with many captured, so I am trying to also pick up the trail of their captured wounded to search for references to the Curgies area. If I come across any reference to Gottingen POW camps I will post a note.

Cheers

Jeff

[Shep]

Cheers Jeff, I'll keep my eyes open for that.

[jeffw]

Cheers Jeff, I'll keep my eyes open for that.

Hi Wendy - I was recently contacted by the VP of the York & Lancaster Regimental Association, who informed me that the village of Haspres (Nord) is to hold a commemorative celebration in 2008, in connection with the 90th anniversary of the liberation of their village.

The Mayor has extended an invitation to descendants of soldiers who took part in the actions of October 1918. There are more than a hundred graves of 1/4th and 1/5th Y & L soldiers in the Commonwealth Wargrave Commission cemetery just outside Haspres, so the village is “familiar” with the regiment. This was the action described in the narrative of the October 1918 Y&L War Diary, in which your grandfather and my Gt uncle were wounded.

The invite from the mayor of Haspres came via the British Embassy, Paris and was subsequently passed to the Y&L Regimental Association, who are tracing descendants and making arrangements for the visit. The Association was aware of my case, as a result of my recent contact whilst researching the 1/5th and my Gt uncle.

I was asked if I knew of any other descendants and could I put them in touch, so here are the Association’s contact details, if you or any other of your family members would like to participate.

Col Geoff Norton (ret)

VP York and Lancaster Regimental Association

E-mail : yandlregt@blueyonder.co.uk

Best wishes

Jeff

[Shep]

Hi Wendy - I was recently contacted by the VP of the York & Lancaster Regimental Association, who informed me that the village of Haspres (Nord) is to hold a commemorative celebration in 2008, in connection with the 90th anniversary of the liberation of their village.

The Mayor has extended an invitation to descendants of soldiers who took part in the actions of October 1918. (...)

I was asked if I knew of any other descendants and could I put them in touch, so here are the Association’s contact details, if you or any other of your family members would like to participate.

Hi Jeff

Many thanks for the heads-up. My dad is very excited... bit before time but I'm sure that this trip will make his year. I had no idea that grandad's part in the battle would have led to this kind of remembrance.

I'll get in touch, and perhaps if you are also going next year, we can meet up there and say hello...

All the very best,

W

[jeffw]

Hi Jeff

Many thanks for the heads-up. My dad is very excited... bit before time but I'm sure that this trip will make his year. I had no idea that grandad's part in the battle would have led to this kind of remembrance.

Hi Wendy

Glad to hear it was of interest to you and your family.

When I was first contacted by Col Geoff Norton of the Regimental Association, I was astonished at the coincidence of this event being announced, just a few months after I had started researching my great uncle.

I will definitely be attending and will look forward to meeting up and swapping stories.

Best wishes

Jeff

[Shep]

Hi Jeff,

you said:

Hi Wendy -Thanks for expanding on your Grandfather’s story, what a terrible time he must have had! If you do find the bit that’s missing on the other scraps of paper and they reveal anything more about his journey to Gottingen, I really would be interested to hear.

Well, it's been a while, but we finally found those scraps of paper with some reference to what happened after 13/10/1918...

The 'list' is actually written on the back of a German field postcard in purple wax pencil, but it's a bit faded and edges are worn away, so I'll transcribe what I can read...

it begins with the entry:

Oct 13th 18. Captured at Haspres. (CAMB...) (bit missing)

" Taken to FA at Valenciennes

Oct 15th 18 Taken to Hospital at Mons

Oct 27th18 Evacuated Mons

Nov 1st Arrived at Gottingen in/Hann. Taken to Gef. Lazarett. (Gottingen in/Hann)

Dec 19.18 Admitted into Augenklinik Gott. Very good hospital. Clever Drs. Good food.

Dec 20.18 Visited Ohrenklinik. Nose examined.

Dec 21.18 Operation on left eye (no chlor.)

Dec 23.18 Held Xmas Eve at Augenklinik. 1 hour service. presents given to value of 15mks per man. Received pocket wallet, mirror, pipe, cigarettes, cigars, tobacco, apples and biscuits.

Dec24.19 Operation on right eye. (Chlor) Right eye taken out.

Dec 25.18 Extra fancy food. Wine at dinner.

Dec 26.18 " " " Beer " "

Dec 27.18 Visited Ohrenklinik again.

Dec 30.18 " "

Dec 31.18 " Gef. Lazarett. Celebrated New year's Eve, Cigars, cig.

The last entry at the bottom is too faded to read.

The rest is about repatriation but was unfortunately, written in graphite pencil and has faded so much I can hardly read it. I can see 'left Etaples' and arrived Dover, dated 13/19, then London, then a hospital somewhere and his family came to visit.

Don't know if you'll make anything of this, but I'll bring it with me when we come to Haspres, if you're interested.

I think Grandad was treated pretty well. Either that or he was very robust for a 19 year old, he seems to have come through pretty well, considering his injuries. Perhaps he saw that there were others much worse off, who knows. Like I say, he ever spoke about it to anyone.

Cheers

W

[jeffw]

Hi Wendy - very glad to see you found those scraps of paper of your grandfathers diary, from 13 October 1918 onwards. What an ordeal he went through! There seem to be so many differing reports on how prisoners were treated! He seemed happy with his treatment, but must have had some grit to withstand that operation without chloroform.

Your information was very useful for my research into what happened to my Gt Uncle. Since they were in the same battalion I believe it a fair assumption they would have been within 500 yards of each other when they were both wounded and captured on 13 October 1918. It is very interesting your grandfather’s diary shows he had already been taken to the “Field Ambulance at Valenciennes” by the same evening and their route would have taken them close to Curgies, which is the village cemetery where my Gt Uncle was buried, at a time when it was still under German occupation and ten miles behind the front line.

I have been trying to find out the date he died of his wounds and why he was buried at Curgies, so your information really does provide a big piece of the jigsaw!

Yes - I really would like to see the diary on the Haspres trip and would be most grateful, if you could let me have a scan of it.

Best wishes -Jeff

[Shep]

Jeff, I'm glad you found that useful. I'll get it scanned for you.

See you soon!

All the best,

W

[charlotte_kennedy2]

Hi Paul

I'm a second year history student doing some research for the Yorkshire Film Archive on WW1 films. The film I have been selected to research 1 /5^th Battalion, York and Lancaster Regiment. We have a film which is six minutes long showing the regiment marching through York before they were deployed to France the following year. I have done some background research for the film, the end goal for the research programme is to make a short film of the research and stories we have found. An the creation of a film which will be going active the online in a couple of weeks to mark the centaury for WW1. It would be really interesting if we could share the research we have found, and see if we could try and identify your relative on the film. I look forward to your reply.

Charlotte

[Guest]

Hi, not sure if this is still a live topic, but I to have a great uncle Ernest Jakes who was also in the 1 /5 battalion and was also killed on 13th October 1918. I have the original telegram that was sent to my great grandmother informing them if his death. The family had celebrated the end of the war on November 11th and the telegram was dated 12th November. My gran remembered the day as clear as anything until her dying day. She always used to tell me how she thought her big brother was going to be coming home. She was 7 years old at the time.

I also have some photos, of him, with some other soldiers taken in one of the villages at the time. I also have a letter sent from his commanding officer telling family how he died.

JeffW - I have been in tough with Geoff Norton who you mentioned above for more info. Thank you.

[davemaltby]

Hi Paulab, I have come across this website (and signed up) whilst doing some research about my wife's grandfather Thomas Morris who I have found also to be a member of the 1/5th Battalion. He died of his wounds on 14/10/18. Having served in the Army myself I have been fortunate to make some good contacts who deal in military history and have come up trumps and found that Thomas is buried at Bucquoy Road Cemetery Ficheux and have been very lucky to receive the burial plot. I am now making plans to take my wife to visit next year. Who says retirement can be boring.

Edited 9 March , 2017 by davemaltby
Amendment

[Guest]

Well done davemalty. I haven't managed to get to my great uncles memorial. It is in France. I have the name of it, but just haven't had a chance.