P-14 rifle

[Devils Own]

Hi Everybody

Has anybody here fired a P-14? I am thinking about getting one but wonder whether the experience will be worth it. I am an Enfield man and wonder whether the P-14 experience is worth having. Any views from you shooters, Heat, Tony, .303?

Also, how widespread was the use of the P-14? Was it found in particular regiments?

How well finished off is the butt plate?

What downsides should we look for in inspecting a piece?

Cheers

Steve

[Pete1052]

Steve,

Go to CSP Forums and ask your question on the Lee Enfield forum. Be forewarned, the forums on CSP are much rowdier places than these are.

Pete

[T8HANTS]

Hi

I shoot one, and it is not my favorite, for reasons I cannot determine the recoil is less pleasant than a No 4, which I prefer over a SMLE. Out of the Enfield range I like the Long lee Enfield, as mine is the complete gentleman. I think the P14's nearly all ended up in the hands of the VTC and Special Reserve in WW1.

Because they were not on general issue it is unlikely they have been shot out, unless it has been in private hands for ages.

I was told to look for matching numbers, good bore, modern proof marks, and ask for a headspace check if buying from a dealer. If from a private owner ask to see any used cases, and look for neck splits and bulging primers. If you have a DRILL ROUND, and only a drill round check feed and ejection. they are very robust, business like, and to my mind just lacking that overall certain something of any of the true Enfields.

Gareth

[Old Tom]

Hello,

A small point, perhaps of interest. I seem to recall from the 1940's that the Home Guard were equiped with P 14's. Not that was a member, a friends elder brother was.

Old Tom

[walrus]

"...I seem to recall from the 1940's that the Home Guard were equiped with P 14's..."

I thought the Home Guard were issues with the P17, effectively the P14 built for the American .30 cartridge.

Of handling the P 14: Being used to the SMLE, I find the P 14 slightly uncomfortable and it's Mauser action awkward, but that is purely subjective, I'm sure that if I dedicated more time to the weapon its handling would feel more 'natural'.

Tom

[Pete1052]

A pedantic point, but the U.S. Army called it the Model 1917, 30-06 caliber, which evolved from the P-14 after HMG ended work on the P-14. I believe that Remington had been the P-14 contractor. Most Doughboys didn't like the Model 1917 and would have rather had the M1903 Springfield.

[T8HANTS]

The Home Guard had P14's in both calibres, which is why the .30" - 06 rifle had to be painted with a red ring around the woodwork, so the calibre was immediately apparent.

What ever the Doughboys thought of the P14, Sgt York did his thing with one!

[TonyE]

The .303" Pattern 14 rifle was derived from the .276" Pattern 13 and was initially ordered in November 1914, 200,000 from each of Winchester and Remington, with delivery expected in 9 to 12 months time.

A further 200,000 were ordered from Remington in January 1915 and 200,000 from Winchester in March 1915. Remington set up a further factory at Eddystone so the British government ordered 1,500,000 Pattern 14 rifles from this facility. No rifles had been delivered by July 1915 but despite this in August 1915 a further 600,000 were ordered from Remington and another 500,000 from Eddystone. There were thus 3,400,000 rifles ordered before a single one had been delivered.

The first rifles were not accepted until February 1916 when 20 were accepted. Due to the delays efforts had been concentrated on improving Lee Enfield production and the bulk of the P14s were cancelled. About 1.2 million were accepted by the UK.

Due to the problems of interchangeability it was decided that the P14s would only be used for training and home duties, although the Winchester manufactured rifles were found to be very accurate and some were set up for sniping but arrived too late to see much war service. They served as the standard British sniping rifle in the inter-war years as the Rifle No.3 Mark 1* (T).

After the war the P14s were placed in store and in the 1930's were all refurbished and upgraded to "Weedon Standard" which involved removal of volley sights and other minor details. They were held in store and in WW2 performed the same role for training and Home Guard duties, although a few saw action.

When the British contracts were cancelled in 1917 the US government used the plant for the Model 1917 in 30-06 calibre. it is wrong to call a Model 1917 a P.17 or a .30-06 P.14.

I have owned and shot a P.14 and liked it. It does not have the smoothness of an Enfield but it is a strong action and very accurate. I am rather fond of them.

Regards

TonyE

[Pete1052]

This thread is like deja vu for me because not long ago a guy started talking about the P-14 on an American gun forum when what he really meant was the M1917. There were differences between the two rifles.

[Pat Holscher]

The Home Guard had P14's in both calibres, which is why the .30" - 06 rifle had to be painted with a red ring around the woodwork, so the calibre was immediately apparent.

What ever the Doughboys thought of the P14, Sgt York did his thing with one!

Sgt. Alvin York was likely armed with the M1917, not the P14. The difference, of course, is that the M1917 fires the .30-06, while the P14 was a .303 arm. There are other very minor differences, but the cartridge difference is fairly significant.

Having said that, it isn't universally accepted that York was carrying the M1917, although it seems to me that this is the most likely arm. Once school of thought, based on his diaries, and the verly late recollections of his relatives, states that he was carrying the M1903. This is based on his dairy entries noting that he didn't like the "English gun", and from his son's very late life recollections. However, the 82d Division, which he was part of, is known to have been issued the M1917 at the time he was in action with them. Moreover, the 82d Division recieved some quantities of SMLEs at the time that York made his comment about the "English gun". So, in those comments, he was probably referring to the SMLE, and he probably received a M1917 along with the rest of the division later.

York also carried a M1911.

On the original question, I've not shot a P14, but I have shot M1917s and I like them. I've also shot SMLEs. Probably a person who is very familiar with the SMLE would prefer it, but I feel the P14 is just as fine of rifle.

FWIW, use of the P14 by the British and Commonwealth armies is underestimated. It received quite a bit more use in WWI than it is given credit for. Quantities of P14s did see use by the Home Guard in WWII, along with lend lease M1917s. At least the Australian Army still used sniper variants of the P14 in the first half of WWII.

The M1917 also received a lot more use than it is given credit for. Half of all US troops carried it in WWI. In WWII it was issued to Chemical mortar teams and artillerymen up in to 1943. It was supplied to the Free French and used in combat by them in Europe. It was also supplied to the Nationalist Chinese.

[TonyE]

The actual total of Pattern 14s received in the UK was 1,117,850. The difference between this figure and the approximate 1.2 million manufactured is accounted by 100,000 rifles sent direct to India and about 25,000 that were lost at sea to U-boats.

Also, considerable quantities were sent to Russia in WW2 as part of the allied aid effort.

Regards

TonyE

[MikB]

I have owned and shot a P.14 and liked it. It does not have the smoothness of an Enfield but it is a strong action and very accurate. I am rather fond of them.

Regards

TonyE

I've shot one as well, and agree 100%. They are a very attractive, strongly- and precisely-built piece in good order, and can deliver accuracy that's surprising for an 'issue' rifle, but they are a different animal from the Lee-Enfields. The real answer is to have both .

Regards,

MikB

[gew98]

Yes ; the answer is to truly have both rifles !. ( SMLE & Patt'14 ).

As for links the "jouster" link is a joke for anything other than US arms. For true enfield addiction you need to go here :

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/default.asp?CAT_ID=7

I have found the Patt'14 to be probably the most accurate military bolt action I have ever shot . More so than even it's .30 caliber brother.

[findabetterole]

Gentlemen!,

The US Enfield P14 & the US Enfield P17 are two different Service Rifles, one in .303 cal & the other in 30.06 cal. One would not call an Enfield SMLE No.1 Mk.3 an Enfield No.4!

Sgt York used a US Enfield 30.06 cal P17,

The British Home Guard of WW.2 used the US Enfield P14 in .303 cal. Why on earth would a country attempting to re-arm its Armed Forces after a near disaster, arm a militia force with two distinct calibres of weapon. The idea was to simplify logistics not complicate an already disrupted supply line.

Seph

[Pete1052]

The US Enfield P14 & the US Enfield P17 are two different service Rifles, one in .303 cal & the other in 30.06 cal.

I mostly agree with what you're saying. But there was no U.S. Enfield P14--that model was British, not U.S. Delete the "U.S." from your nomenclature for it.

The U.S. Rifle described here was the Model 1917, not the Pattern 1917. Abbreviated, it was the M1917, not the P1917. How many times do I have to say this within the same thread?

[TonyE]

Gentlemen!,

The US Enfield P14 & the US Enfield P17 are two different Service Rifles, one in .303 cal & the other in 30.06 cal. One would not call an Enfield SMLE No.1 Mk.3 an Enfield No.4!

Sgt York used a US Enfield 30.06 cal P17,

The British Home Guard of WW.2 used the US Enfield P14 in .303 cal. Why on earth would a country attempting to re-arm its Armed Forces after a near disaster, arm a militia force with two distinct calibres of weapon. The idea was to simplify logistics not complicate an already disrupted supply line.

Seph

I disagree. The Home Guard in WW2 was armed almost entirely with US .30-06 weapons for the first part of the war, for the simple reason that the .303 weapons that were available went to the regular forces for the very purpose of keeping supply to them simplified.

The Home Guard, or LDV, had M1917 rifles, some Browning MGs and other weapons, all in .30-06. The normal practice was to paint a red and white stripe around the butt and forward woodwork to identify the calibre. I do not have to hand the number of M1917 rifles sent to Britain, but it was a couple of million. Most of the ball mmunition for these was US made in the late 20s/early 30s, but Britain introduced three marks of drill ammunition made from old American cases specifically for these weapons. Also remember that most Lend Lease aircraft arrived equipped with .30-06 Brownings.

The other principal HG rifle was the Canadian Ross Mark III. It appears that these were mostly ex-Canadian Mark III rifles originally exchanged for SMLEs in the first war rather than British Mark IIIB contract rifles. It seems that the majority of the latter had gone to the new Baltic states.

Regards

TonyE

[T8HANTS]

Hi all

Just to reply to Seph

Taking as my source an article written in "Stand To" #55, April 1999, written by leonard G. Shurtleff, page 15, which I will quote.

"But what about Sergeant York (or Corporal York, as he was at the time)? The classic film starring Gary Cooper and directed by Howard Hawks, (himself a Great War US Army flying instructor) depicts York as using a Springfield Model 1903 to pick off the enemy one by one. This is the deed which earned Alvin York of Tennessee the Medal of honour, America's highest award for valour. The only problem with the the scene in the film is that York DID NOT use the Spingfield rifle on 8 October 1918 in the Argonne. Rather he used the other rifle, the model 1917 American Enfield which was issued to the men of his Division, the 82nd. York, a non commissioned officer, is correctly depicted as carrying and firing a side arm. In the the movie, it is a P-08 Luger 9mm German semi-automatic pistol. In the Argonne campaign, York actually carried a Model 1911.45" Calibre APC semi-automatic pistol, the same as those who served in the US Army or Marines remember firing in training. The problem was that Hawkes could not find any .45" calibre APC blank ammunition when it came time to film the battle scenes for Sargeant York. So Gary Cooper used the 9mm Luger instead. Still despite the minor lapse in authenticity, it's a great movie and a great story about a genuine American hero - even if he did carry a BRITISH DESIGNED RIFLE".

Only the use of bold capitals are mine, the rest is a direct quote of the article about the "Doughboy's Rifle: (it wasn't necessarily a Springfield)"

Gareth

[Devils Own]

OK, so now I am wondering whether to get a P-14 or a M1917. I have more spaces on my FAC for .303s but I will probably need to exchange my .223 slot for a .30 06.

[T8HANTS]

Try looking for the availability of the ammo. 303 is getting expensive in ready made, military surplus has all but dried up. If you are into home loading, it won't matter, 30 - 06 is a marginally bigger bang I think, and being US probably better catered for than .303.

You could go for a 7.62 conversion, I don't think there were any that retained full military woodwork, but lots of actions made the 1st generation, budget target rifles, and most will still shoot better than their owners. Or get a 223 barrel on an old action and keep your FAC unaltered

I was shooting my P14 this morning, but I still prefer my LLE.

Gareth

[TonyE]

Devil's Own - try to get a Pattern 14 still in its original military configuration. They are hard enough to find in the UK but I think a M1917 would be even more difficult.

You may have to content yourself with a P14 fitted with a Parker Hale sight for target work which will be missing the military rear sight, but you might be lucky.

Allthough there is a fair amount of surplus .303 at the moment that has come from one of the Baltic states, that won't last long so be prepared to load if you want to shoot it.

Regards

TonyE

[Devils Own]

I like the FNM .303 ammo. In my opinion, the Baltic 'boat-tail' stuff is not great in old barrels. I have one SMLE which fires the FNM and surplus very accurately but the Eastern European stuff wobbles about all over the place and leaves holes the size of 50p at 300yds.

There is apparently a lot of surplus machine gun ammo around that has caused problems in some rifle barrels.

[TonyE]

Actually I was talking about the British manufactured stuff that is comimg back. I went through a few thousand recently looking for headstamp variations and 99.9% was British made pre-WW2 from when they had P.14s, Lewis and Vickers guns in .303.

There was also quite a lot of Kynock 1928 ball packed in red Air Service commercial packets. It was in pristine condotion but I don't know how well it had stored. I have seen the odd box or two on ebay.

What is the headstamp of the boat-tailed ammo you describe?

Regards

TonyE

[findabetterole]

Hello Guy's,

In reply to PETE1052.

The US Enfield P14 or M1914, whichever you prefer, WAS a US manufactured weapon. Thus, it has always been refered to as for as long as I can remember as one of the two US Enfields, the other being the P17 or M1917.

The reason for this is due in part to the joint research in the US before WW.1 to find a replacement for the Enfield SMLE No.1 P/M1903. The researched calibre being .276. Upon commencement of WW.1, the research on this replacement weapon was dropped by the UK, as it was deemed to costly in many respects to re-tool for the new calibre at such a time. It was also deemed prudent to push forward 110% manufacture of the SMLE. However, due to the inherent need to fully arm her Forces, it was decided that the US on behalf of the UK, would take up the dropped joint US/UK research, refine the already in-place product and produce in .303 cal for issue to the UK, what became known uneversally as the 'P' or Model 1914.

Upon America's entry into WW.1, it was found that she required greater numbers of the 1903 .30.06 cal Springfield than she realised. As at this time the UK was self sufficient in SMLE production, the US re-tooled the P14/M1914 .303 cal service rifle to US 30.06 cal in order to speed the equiping of her armed forces and suppliment the '03' Springfields available. The re-tooled P14/M1914 became known as the US Enfield P17/M1917.

Depending upon how well one knows each weapon shows ones reference to such, and as such is purly pedantic to pic fault with the reference.

Everyone within my circle of Armed Forces / Former Armed Forces or Civilian Collector Friends, when hearing the term ' US Enfield', will always reply... P14 or P17? Knowing fully that the person concerned was not refering to the WW.1 Remington or Winchester bayonets which carry the same nomencular!

Does that make sence? Or, in your own words.... "How many times do I have to say this in the same thread?"

GARETH!.. Nice accurate explanation..... Well Done.

Seph

[TonyE]

"The reason for this is due in part to the joint research in the US before WW.1 to find a replacement for the Enfield SMLE No.1 P/M1903. The researched calibre being .276. Upon commencement of WW.1, the research on this replacement weapon was dropped by the UK, as it was deemed to costly in many respects to re-tool for the new calibre at such a time. It was also deemed prudent to push forward 110% manufacture of the SMLE. However, due to the inherent need to fully arm her Forces, it was decided that the US on behalf of the UK, would take up the dropped joint US/UK research, refine the already in-place product and produce in .303 cal for issue to the UK, what became known uneversally as the 'P' or Model 1914."

May I ask what evidence you have that the US was in any way connected with the rifle and ammunition trials Britain carried out between about 1904 and 1913 that resulted in the .276 Pattern 13 rifle and RL 18000C cartridge?

And yes, as the official board small arms pedant I do like to see the nomenclature used correctly. It is the Pattern 1914 and the Model 1917. Also, what is a SMLE No.1 P/M1903?

From introduction in late 1902 until 1926 it was the Rifle, Short, Magazine, Lee Enfield Mark I through III*. Only thereafter was it the Rifle No.1 Mark III.

When Winchester and Remington were approached in September 1914 to manufacture the new rifle in .303" calibre both initially refused saying they were already fully committed and it was only when Britain agreed to give considerable financial advances that contracts were agreed.

This was not Lend Lease. The American companies manufactured those rifles on a purely commercial basis.

Regards

TonyE

[Pete1052]

Well, there are patterns and then there are models, there are Brits and also Americans, separated as ever by the language they share in common.

To paraphrase Henry Higgins in My Fair Lady, "Why can't the Americans teach the British how to speak? Norwegians learn Norwegian, the Greeks are taught their Greek...."