Soldiers remains discarded!

[chrislock]

This is what happens in the real world and not forum members ideaology! I was buying some patio tiles in Boezinge yesterday and noticed that there is much road work going on here. Apart from the usual ordinance and debris laying about, I got chatting to a workman. He then showed us a Lee Enfield and several helmets etc that they had found. I asked if any soldiers were discovered. He then told us that quite a few remains had been discovered but were then destroyed or quickly covered over. "We have a time budget and work must not get held up" was the reply. It was all a matter of fact and they were not troubled in the slightest by it! When you live with it and it affects your livelyhood, I guess it becomes the norm!

[Guest KevinEndon]

Heartbreaking story that these remains are either destroyed or covered over. I know that progress and development must go on but the remains should have a proper burial somewhere.

I wonder what the French government think about it, are they happy for the remains to be reburied/covered over. No doubt the question arose then the contractor was sitting down with the authorities talking about the time table of constuction. I wonder what was said.

I doubt there is anything we can do about it maybe Terry could tell us how the land lies with this.

[Tom Morgan]

As Chris says, we live in a real world and I'm sure that this happens a lot. I know some farmers who find remains mark the spot for the time being and then "find them again" after they have harvested their crops when they don't need the field for a while. But with the pace of modern life, and the perpetual complaints about road works in particular, there must be other forces at work at times, and these must cause all sorts of cover-ups and scatterings that we never hear about.

Tom

[Joan and Terry]

Several months ago we were talking to someone about a similar story about the excavations at Theipval when they were building the visitors centre.Apparently the workmen came across the remains of a number of bodies,and they just placed the bones in bin liners and disposed? of them.At the time we could not believe that would happen,now having read several posts,it has given us pause for thought.

Joan

[Terry Denham]

Stories like this abound.

The incident should be reported to the local police who have the authority to act. It would be the Belgian police in this case as the remains mentioned were found in Belgium.

[Ozzie]

Do they have no concept of what happened, of what these men suffered, of what these men gave up?

If they do and they still dispose of, or cover up, then I hope, well, maybe that is better left unsaid.

Kim

[6th Shropshires]

Its all a sad mark of our modorn world, so much for progess hay, if you ask me this worlds going backwards.

[Simon R]

Sad to say this is nothing new.

Archaeologists hear these stories regulalry at a wide variety of sites from a wide variety of periods.

Developers in the UK have adopted a new norm, which does affect their spending, in adapting to planning policy guidance which requires archaeological interests to be taken into account in advance of development. It is an imperfect model but it is a practicable device that puts archaeology into the planning system.

Things can change and do. But it is important to support the reasons we would commonly put forward for advancing archaeology into the planning process with an 'ideology' that explains why we value these remains.

Practice and 'ideology' are not mutually exclusive.

[Terry Denham]

Take note that, if any names are mentioned on the Forum in a potentially libellous context, the posts will be removed immediately.

[Moonraker]

Some years ago I came across a file in the National Archives (then the PRO) about the disinterment of remains of Great War German PoWs from English churchyard. One local doctor was very concerned about the casual way the remains were dealt with by employees of the German equivalent of the Commonwealth Graves Commission, the bones being given a quick scrape to remove whatever was adhering to them. This suggests that the PoWs were not buried in coffins or, if they were, these quickly rotted away.

This is not a subject that particularly interests me, but some of the books about Custer's Last Stand include accounts of how the US Army dealt with the dead of the 7th Cavalry, most of the bodies having been mutilated. A most unpleasant task. There's some doubt that Custer's body was correctly identified.

Moonraker

[Wayne Saillard]

What ever happened to human dignity and respect ? Surely the relatives of these soldiers have the right to whatever comfort that can be obtained by their being given a proper burial ?

I very seriously doubt the people involved in these incidents would like similar treatment to be bestowed upon their own relatives. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

Regards

Wayne

[AB64]

A friend of mine who lives in Arnhem found a partial set of remains stuck in a plastic bag and buried just under the surface a couple of years ago - he did the correct thing and reported the find to the police, but everything had been removed except the boots (British ammo boots) that and the fact no one could be sure where the remains had first been meant their was no chance of identifying this individual. I found it particullary upsetting as the remains were found about 10 feet away from a trench that had been occupied by a friend of mine - it could have been his Lance Corporal who went missing during the battle, or another friend of his.

Sadly I dont doubt this happens all the time.

Alistair

[Jonathan Saunders]

Sad but regrettably no surprise.

[Take on me]

The incident should be reported to the local police who have the authority to act. It would be the Belgian police in this case as the remains mentioned were found in Belgium.

Just out of interest what would the police do if such an incident were reported to them? Is the situation the same in France?

Jon

[chrislock]

I'm sure if reported, the police would react in accordance with their laws, however, if nobody informs them, enough said!

[bcerha]

If memory serves me correctly wasn't there a similar incident here in the UK a few years ago when a group of rather unscrupulous individuals set about finding and "excavating" downed WWII aircraft. They were filmed paying scant regard to the remains found therein save for removing any items of potential worth before dumping them in plastic bin liners. I guess that that practice was rather more extreme and if not actually illegal then certainly verged on it - but I guess that it just goes to show that sadly not everyone has the sense of feeling and worth that members of this forum do for those that sacrificed their lives for the sake of others.

A great shame.

David

[auchonvillerssomme]

What disturbs me is the fact that some people on here say they have witnessed this first hand and do not appear to have done anything about it. If you know this has happened then i'm afraid I feel you are as much to blame as the people doing the act. Shame.

Mick

[Simon R]

The key words being 'do not appear', but yes, if we are serious about the historic past then standing up to be counted is absolutely necessary and I agree.

However - not everyone will be in a position 'to do anything about it' or have the contacts or confidence to intervene.

Perhaps the best way of combatting this is to lobby for better planning legislation.

[Owen D]

I do find this distasteful.

Should be no surprise though, the words money & profit come to mind.

If I saw anything like it I hope I'd have the balls to intervene.

[auchonvillerssomme]

By not having contacts do you mean the police? Generally they are available and after all the finding of any human remains has to be reported in every country in Europe.

Sorry but I can't understand this hand wringing if not willing to do something.

Mick

[Aurel Sercu]

Just out of interest what would the police do if such an incident were reported to them?

Jon

Jon,

The answer is simple : of course they would come over and do what is expected to do ! I just cannot imagine that police anywhere, Flanders, UK or elsewhere in a 'civilized' country, when notified that human remains were found (war related or not), would react with indifference.

At Boezinge we found remains of 200 men. Each time the police were contacted, reports were made and the remains were taken away so that they could be handed later to the CWGC or Volksbund or (for French remains) to the representative at the Belgian Ministry of Defence, in order to be reburied.

I would also like to add this, in a way in defence of the workmen working on what was to become the industrial estate here. One cannot expect a man operating a bulldozer or excavator, 100% concentrated on the job, on levelling the area, making foundation trenches etc., from his position, 3 meters from the surface, to notice when bones come to the surface. When remains are (were) disturbed, this happens (happened) in a few seconds, and then it was too late to identify them as human remains from that high position. He just went on with his job, without even having noticed what had been uncovered. So it may have happened indeed that later on heaps of earth a few scattered bones were found. (When we did, we always removed them of course.)

If one of us during the week when works were in progress happened to be present and noticed that remains were about to be uncovered, then we kindly asked the workmen to continue to work somewhere else for an hour or so. Meanwhile the necessary things were done : remains carefully dug out, photos, description, remains brought to safety and then handed to the police etc. This was a sort of compromise between pragmatism and the official procedure. But it worked. The alternative would have been that we would not have been allowed there if this meant that when finding a bone all works had to be stopped until I don't know when for the police to arrive and do their work. I suppose the engineers would not have been very enthusiastic.

Let's not forget either that seeing remains and identifying them as remains right away is noy always easy. Either from a bulldozer, excavator, or just standing on the ground. Often, especially when they are close to the surface, less than a foot deep, they are almost pulverized. Also : in the majority of cases the remains found on that location (Boezinge, industrial site) were very fragmentary (have been shattered by shells in this no man's land for more than 2 years.) A really practical question could be (and often was) : Do the police have to be called for this ? (a few ribs, or half of a lower jaw, a tibia,...)

I myself have heard indeed (heard !) of cases in which it was said that the finding of remains was not reported. (And this certainly happened decades ago, or in the years after the war.) I have never witnessed this or spoken to anyone who treated found remains in this 'disrespectful' way. Always from hearsay.

Aurel

[Simon R]

By not having contacts do you mean the police? Generally they are available and after all the finding of any human remains has to be reported in every country in Europe.

Sorry but I can't understand this hand wringing if not willing to do something.

Mick

I take your point.

And I would like to echoe Aurels points regarding pragmatism, he makes the case very well.

[auchonvillerssomme]

I take your point.

And I would like to echoe Aurels points regarding pragmatism, he makes the case very well.

I sincerely apologise for the tone of my post, it was one of those that was sent without counting to 1000 first.

Mick

[MACRAE]

During my visit in july to Avrils we went on a walk from the ulster tower and passed a village i think is called athluie not sure of teh spelling, any way we got talking to a gentelman in the village and he told us at building site near where the airport is being built out side Albert, the workmen found 5 germans and imeadatly re-buired them and did not say a word. How those people can sleep at night i can only wonder i think its time that as soon as members hear of these finds note location and contact the police. I wonder would they have done the same if the remains had been French ?.

D

[chrislock]

Thank you Aurel, you put it much better than I could of. For the benifit of others who judge others, either by default or intent, I wouldn't dream of coming over to England and taking action on what I could not see or do not have the full facts on! The police were already there when I walked past but the site is huge, the bulldozers were in full charge and the highways people, gas, electricity workers etc were all working extremely hard! The locals also cannot get into their houses! Maybe if we lived with this problem on our doorsteps as they do, maybe we could be a bit more understanding of their plight! One house even had a huge shell exposed on the drive!