WWI U-boats found off Orkney

[Martin Bennitt]

Just found following on BBC website. Apols if we have already hadthis but unsight anything on this forum.

cheers Martin B

U-boats' last resting place found

Two submarine wrecks, believed to be uncharted WWI German U-boats, have been discovered by chance off Orkney.

A team working on a Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) tug made the find during a routine sonar survey.

The submarines - reported missing in the area in 1918 - were discovered about 70 miles off Sanday Sound.

One was under the control of Commander Kurt Beitzen, who had previously mined and sunk HMS Hampshire carrying Lord Kitchener in 1916.

Plans of the two U-boats have been examined by experts, who have identified the wrecks as U-102 and U-92, which may have been sunk by a series of mines.

'Watery grave'

Rob Spillard, hydrography manager for the MCA, said: "One of the subs it seems was commanded by quite a famous commander - the man who sunk the ship that Lord Kitchener was on - so this is his watery grave so to speak."

On 23 May, 1916, U-75 laid mines under the control of Commander Beitzen after traveling around the west coast of Orkney undetected.

Less than a month later the head of the war ministry, Lord Kitchener, was lost at sea together with many of the crew of the cruiser HMS Hampshire after striking mines.

He has been well remembered for his famous recruitment posters, bearing his heavily moustached face and pointing hand, over the legend "Your country needs you".

Beitzen later transferred to U-102, which was on its way home to Germany in autumn 1918 when it was lost with all 42 hands.

The MCA was one part of the team involved in the recent ScapaMap survey, which successfully mapped the locations of the remains of the German fleet scuttled at Scapa Flow in 1919.

The discovery of these U-boats was not part of the Scapa Flow project but part of the MCA's ongoing process of undertaking hydrographic surveys in UK waters.

Mr Spillard said: "The tug's main role is to intervene when large vessels require towing away from the coast in order to protect shipping, lives and the environment.

"The MCA have fitted state-of-the-art sonar equipment to the tug. Whilst the tug is on standby for any incident that may occur, it is put to good use collecting hydrographic survey data."

[Michael Lowrey]

A link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotlan...ast/6172692.stm

And I would be one of the experts working on this.

[J T Gray]

A link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotlan...ast/6172692.stm

And I would be one of the experts working on this.

Can you (are you allowed to?) tell us any more, please? Such as how the ID was made? Or is there not a lot more to say? Not that I have a personal interest, just fascinated by things on the bottom of the sea!

Adrian

[Michael Lowrey]

Adrian,

A couple of factors involved here:

The proximite of the wrecks (about a mile) to each other suggests a common cause of loss — a minefield.

The sonar scan of the wreck not shown in the article is the cleaner and easier ID. The position (and existence) of key features of the wreck (guns, the conning tower) is consistent with those of U 102 and no other loss that can even possibly be linked to the Northern Barrage. (Yes, we compared the planes to the sonar images.) The wreck shown is more difficult, but could be U 92.

There are no other known WWI U-boat losses in the area besides those linked to the Northern Barrage in September and October 1918.

All identifications are subject to what the divers find when they dive the wrecks.

Best wishes,

Michael

[SilverSoldier]

Michael.

Now these Submarines have been found and their locations recorded, will there be measures taken to ensure that any 'Unauthorised' Dive's/Diver's finding them will be somehow regulated? ie steps taken to prevent the sites being looted, artifacts taken etc? Should they not be classed as War Graves?

Just a thought.

Terry. W

[Michael Lowrey]

Terry,

No. War grave status per se does nothing to protect a military vessel from divers. The UK does have a scheme that restricts diving on certain specified military wrecks. German vessels can be included (three U-boats are, in fact, two of them of WWI vintage) if close enough to shore. There are two levels of protection — dive allowed only on a look but don't touch basis; and all diving banned without a virtually impossible to obtain permit. UB 81 was recently put into the latter status, the same as the Royal Oak enjoys, as some divers were, it seems, observed aggressively looting the wreck.

As a practical matter, the main thing protecting these wrecks is that they are off the Orkneys, and thus remote, and fairly deep, which further reduces the amount of divers capable of diving them.

Best wishes,

Michael

[cockney tone]

Martin,

most interesting thread, thanks for posting it.

Michael,

thanks for your input and good luck,

regards,

scottie.

[J T Gray]

most interesting thread, thanks for posting it.

Michael,

thanks for your input and good luck,

Seconded on all counts - most illuminating!

Adrian

[Matthew]

Compelling pictures but very sad. I always imagine that dying in a submarine must be the most horrible way to meet one's end. Fascinating pictures but they make my blood run cold.

[Wayne Saillard]

At last, relatives can obtain closure thanks to this discovery.

Regards

Wayne

[Martin Bennitt]

Martin,

most interesting thread, thanks for posting it.

regards,

scottie.

Thank you kindly, sir. It helps to have a job that involves frequent checks on news websites.

cheers Martin B

[mcderms]

... Except for here we go again with 'Divers will loot the these sacred graves' b*ll*cks.

I just wish some people would actually take some time to talk to divers who spend their money and time investigating wrecks like these instead of leaping for pre-emptive diving bans.

FFS who do you think has found, ID'd and recorded all the war wrecks in UK waters? As someone whose done it and is several thousand ££s worse off, I can tell you that it's not the govt!

[Lamlash]

To add to mcderms. They don't go out of their way to make them war graves until they've removed any valuables. H.M.S. Edinburgh dead didn't stop government agreed salvage of gold.

[George Armstrong Custer]

From today's 'Times':

The Times November 23, 2006

U-boat discovery solves wartime mystery

David Lister

Sonar reveals two lost submarines

Commander was Kitchener's nemesis

The wrecks of two German submarines, including one that carried the commander who sent Lord Kitchener of Khartoum to his death, have been found by chance off Orkney.

A sonar survey by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency found the remains of two U-boats on the seabed about 70 miles east of Sanday Sound.

The boats, in water 200ft deep and only a couple of miles apart, have been identified as U102 and U92, which were reported missing in 1918 after apparently sinking, position unknown, on the Northern Barrage, a British minefield between Orkney and Shetland.

U102 was commanded by Kapitanleutnant Kurt Beitzen, who in May 1916 as the commander of U75 had travelled undetected around the west coast of Orkney to lay highexplosive mines.

Less than a month later, the cruiser HMS Hampshire, which was carrying Lord Kitchener, the Secretary of War, on a diplomatic mission to Russia hit one of the mines. Lord Kitchener was lost at sea along with 643 of Hampshire’s 655 crew.

His death, which happened as he was en route to the port of Archangel on the White Sea for a conference with the Russian High Command, has been shrouded in controversy and conspiracy theories. These include claims that David Lloyd George, then the new Minister for Munitions and Lord Kitchener’s bitter political rival, had colluded with Germany to get rid of his opponent. Lloyd George had been due to accompany Lord Kitchener on board Hampshire but his new ministerial appointment had forced him to stay at home.

Beitzen was on his way home to Germany in the autumn of 1918 when the U102 was lost somewhere on the Northern Barrage with all 42 crew.

Rob Spillard, hydrography manager at the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, said yesterday: “One of the subs had a famous commander — the man who sunk the ship that Lord Kitchener was on.”

This year, a sonar survey of Scapa Flow, in Orkney, produced astonishing three-dimensional images of wrecks from the scuttling in 1919 of the German High Seas Fleet, which was ordered to sink more than 50 vessels. As the peace talks at Versailles dragged on, the warships, which had been ordered into Scapa Flow to be interned by the Allies, were sunk on the orders of Rear-Admiral Ludwig Reuter. The wrecks are now a big attraction for divers.

Mr Spillard said that the U-boats were discovered during a routine survey in June and that the area had not previously been properly searched for wartime wrecks. The wrecks had been identified after experts examined original plans of the boats.

Ciao,

GAC

[wulsten]

Innes Mccartney, i think also showed the complete disregard for some of the Jutland wrecks which had been commercially salvaged until unrecognisible without any regard for human loss on these ships, I also dive and have only respect for wrecks dived on take nothing but a memory.

[Kiwiwriter]

Innes Mccartney, i think also showed the complete disregard for some of the Jutland wrecks which had been commercially salvaged until unrecognisible without any regard for human loss on these ships, I also dive and have only respect for wrecks dived on take nothing but a memory.

Jutland wrecks were dived on? Can you elaborate?

This is what happens when you miss staff meetings.