Chris Noble Posted 16 November , 2003 Share Posted 16 November , 2003 Two casualties, both 4th Squadron, General List, buried next to each other. 2/Lt. George Jones Armitage. 2/Lt. Charles Melville Sayer. Both, killed in action, 17/6/17. Can anybody shed some light on this, or any info on 4th Squadron, in general, at this time? Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor Dodd Posted 16 November , 2003 Share Posted 16 November , 2003 Have you tried contacting the RAF museum they are very helpful with enquires. Cheers Conor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Noble Posted 16 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 16 November , 2003 Cheers Conor, that's one avenue i can try. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Noble Posted 16 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 16 November , 2003 Just one thing though, i've looked at some info i have relating to Armitage, son of George Troughton Armitage, Capt. Royal Air Force, i don't know if this helps to any Pals? Just P.B.I. me Connor Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 November , 2003 Share Posted 16 November , 2003 Both were killed while flying RE.8 serial no. A4172. Sayer was from Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada and Armitage was from Pudsey, Yorkshire, UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank_East Posted 17 November , 2003 Share Posted 17 November , 2003 I wonder if these two casualties were the result of a flying accident for they are not listed in "The Sky Their Battlefield".ie not recorded as casualties from enemy action. No 4 Squadron RFC was based at Abeele at the time of their death and was converting to RE 8s from BE 2Gs, BE2Es and BE 2Ds Could this be a case of a flying accident whilst on conversion training with the new aircraft?. Regards Frank East Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSeptember1918 Posted 17 November , 2003 Share Posted 17 November , 2003 Dosen't look like a match to a Jasta pilot according to the Jasta War Chonology . Claims for 17/06/17 are : Ltn M Pollandt J6 ...SE5 ......Beaucamps ....0955 (No56 Squrn lost 2 SE5's ) Vfw F Krebs J6 ...SE5.....Beaucamps........1002 ( as above ) Ltn J Schmidt J3.....Spad......Lievin......2040 ( No23 Squdrn Capt AB Wright ) Obltn E Schleich J21....Sopwith 2 ....Thuizy....2045 ( opponent not none ? ) Obltn E Dostler J6 ....FE2d........St Eloi.....( No 20 Squdrn Boucher & Birkett ) Vfw K Jentsch J1.....Spad.....Berry-au-bac ( opponent not none ) The Jasta's lost Obltn Georg Zeumer ( killed in combat with RE8's SE of Honnecourt) And Uffz Fritz Pohlmann Killed in accident during test flight . Maybe ground fire or accident for you R.F.C. guy's ......Hang on a minute ...lets call Darryl .....HEY DARRYL.......COME AND ANSWER THIS ONE MATE ...ARE YOU OUT THERE .... Phil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killratio Posted 17 November , 2003 Share Posted 17 November , 2003 Maybe ground fire or accident for you R.F.C. guy's ......Hang on a minute ...lets call Darryl .....HEY DARRYL.......COME AND ANSWER THIS ONE MATE ...ARE YOU OUT THERE Phil, Great, pick on the little busy kid!!!!!! I suspect this is an accident as there were quite a few at this time. The RE8 had a shocking reputation early on. It had lateral control problems...but as usual these were blown out of all proportion in "local legend". As usual it was a mixture of racing a new type to the front, inadequate training and don't even get me started on R.A.F monopoly practices. I am at work but will have a look tonight and see what I can find. regards Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 17 November , 2003 Share Posted 17 November , 2003 Both men are shown as 'Killed while flying' in "Airmen Died" which means that the cause was an accident and not enemy action. The early RE8s, with the small fin and under fuselage vertical stabiliser, were known to be less than docile, and prone to spinning (among other things). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSeptember1918 Posted 17 November , 2003 Share Posted 17 November , 2003 Thanks for that Darryl ...sounds like your on the money from Dolphin's post . So your still flat out at your business !!....wow you must be raking it in . But don't forget to have a little play time aswell mate . Interesting about yours and Dolphin's comments on the introduction of the RE8 , and Georg Zeumer being killed in combat with one on that date , but dosen't seem to be a corresponding claim ? . I'm still wondering if Georg was just unlucky ....or if the RE8 crew was concentrating so much on holding the new wagon steady that they just ran Georg off the road ?? .....It seems that whilst Georg was a good and brave pilot , maybe none of MvR's fighter pilot skill rubbed off on him when they were together ..or probably he was just unlucky . Thanks again Darryl...and interesting posts everyone else Phil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSeptember1918 Posted 17 November , 2003 Share Posted 17 November , 2003 How's this for changing the topic , now I'm putting in a post just on Georg Zeumer. I could remember something about this fellow , but just couldn't put my finger on what it was , a check of Kilduff's " Beyond the Legend of the Red Baron " made me remember . This was the guy with the T.B. that wanted to go down fighting and not at a desk isn't it !!. MvR wrote of him after his death " Yesterday , unfortunately , Zeumer fell in aerial combat . Perhaps it was best for him , for he knew that the end of his life was just ahead of him . This splendid , pleasant fellow ! . It would have been terrible if he had had to be tormented to death slowely . So this was a beautiful hero's death . The funeral will be held in the next few days ". Old MvR certainly had a way with words ! . Phil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killratio Posted 17 November , 2003 Share Posted 17 November , 2003 Ok, A4172 was a Daimler built RE8. I have a photo of A4173 and that has the small rudder. No reason to think that '72 was different. (C&C Vol4/3) As I originally said, the "legend " is rarely accurate and is one which attaches to various aircraft at various times. Mostly without any justification. (witness the Hurricane and even, believe it or not, the Cessna 152!!) The myth of the RE8's bad temperament was just that...myth. Spinning trials at R.A.F, subsequent to 52Sqn's problems, found that the aeroplane showed no tendancy to spin unless deliberately put there or grossly mishandled. Once spun, normal recovery action was sufficient and effective. This was so with each of the three tail assemblies tested. (Hare) The trouble was found to be pilot error in each case of accident. The aeroplane had three features which required the pilot's particular attention. First, the engine was prone to overheat very quickly on the ground run. Unless checked, this could lead to an engine failure soon after takeoff. (C&C Vol 9/3) (terrible you say, scandalous, should have been changed....true...so should the Merlin in the Spitfire on that logic!) Also the aeroplane was designed to have very high drag at high angles of attack....to aid in a short landing roll. This meant that once the power was off, the airspeed degraded very quickly. The two factors above resulted in the need to get the pointy bit pointing squarely at the green bit in very short order after loss of power. Not a terribly natural or automatic reaction for an inexperienced pilot who was often still trying to work out what was wrong with the engine. The same problem (for different reasons) occured with the Camel. In addition, the rudder was very effective at yawing the aircraft (the very reverse of the legend!) and insufficient bank would stall the RE8 in this situation. 500 feet, stall a wing, two turns and a bang. 52 Sqn's pilots were very inexperienced and their training had, in all probability, not included spin training. A spin is a dramatic event and leaves a very great impression the first time (a greater one first time it goes wrong!!). Not the kind of learning curve one wants to be battling at 500 feet on takeoff. 52 actually had the RE8 taken off them in short order on the first attempt. They were re-equipped with them again later in 1917, without the same disasterous results. regards Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom Brearley Posted 17 November , 2003 Share Posted 17 November , 2003 What Darryl said! As regards Zeumer, 59 Sqn. got two on 17Jun17 according to Comic Cuts - not bad for a poor old defenceless RE8 outfit - not clear which one was Zeumer. 1. Lts Douglas & Horton attacked and drove down an EA which burst into flames before it crashed. 2. Lt W B Hutcheson & Sgt Rose engaged an Albatros scout which opened fire at close range. After considerable manoeuvring the EA nose-dived, attempted to flatten out, but failed and crashed. Vig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killratio Posted 18 November , 2003 Share Posted 18 November , 2003 What Darryl said! As regards Zeumer, 59 Sqn. got two on 17Jun17 according to Comic Cuts - not bad for a poor old defenceless RE8 outfit - not clear which one was Zeumer. 1. Lts Douglas & Horton attacked and drove down an EA which burst into flames before it crashed. 2. Lt W B Hutcheson & Sgt Rose engaged an Albatros scout which opened fire at close range. After considerable manoeuvring the EA nose-dived, attempted to flatten out, but failed and crashed. Vig. Tom, I only have Douglas/Horton's CiTAR. The other is not on the 59 general file. From this report though, their victim caught fire and was East of Honnecourt. This happened at 0900 British. This fits with the 1000 German of Zeumer's loss "South East of Honnecourt. The Hutcheson Rose victory was mentioned much further down the Communique..leading me to believe it arrived later in the day at the "presses". Pure speculation but a pretty safe bet I think. regards Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Noble Posted 19 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2003 Thanks for all the info Pals. As i suspected, the above were the unfortunate victims of a flying accident as opposed to being the victims of enemy action. Cheers for the clarification. Killratio: Any chance of a scan of A1473 if your not too busy? Would be most grateful On a different note. I've done alot of research into Heavy Conversion Units based in my own locality during WW2. Same story, lots of crashes based on design fault of early MKs of the Halifax, funny enough, the design of the tailplane but mainly pilot error. Same result, different era. Thanks to everybody for their contributions. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killratio Posted 20 November , 2003 Share Posted 20 November , 2003 Chris, No go on the scan....confirmed technophobe!! But I do have a photo quality photocopier. Contact me off board with your snail address and I will send you a copy of the whole article, including A1473. regards Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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