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Remembered Today:

Pte S Burns - Manchester Rgt


John_Hartley

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I can't find any likely candidate for this chap on the CWGC website (nor in SDGW).

So far, all I have to go on is a newspaper obituary and his inclusion on the Stockport War Memorial.

The obituary indicates a "died of wounds" on 16 July 1916, aged 34, whilst with the Manchesters. There's no reference to a UK funeral so I assume death overseas for now.

Am I missing him somehow or have I got another non-commem?

John

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Ta for looking. Odd, though. Can't find him on 1837online either.

And there's only one MIC for an S Burns with the Mancs - and he transferred to the Labour Corps.

John

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And there's only one MIC for an S Burns with the Mancs - and he transferred to the Labour Corps.

John

John

And its not a very exciting MIC

Glyn

post-5500-1164224065.jpg

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John,

Can you post the obituary transcript plaese?

Looking at it from the other direction there were only two Samuel Burns' born within the right time frame:

Births Dec 1881

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BURNS Samuel Madeley 6a 632

BURNS Sarah Ann Manchester 8d 219

BURNS Sarah Ann Middlesbro' 9d 599

BURNS Sylvia Chorlton 8c 793

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Births Jun 1882

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Burns Samuel Saddleworth 9a 259

Burns Sarah Pontypridd 11a 395

Burns Sarah Jane Toxteth Park 8b 221

Burns Susan Arnott Newcastle T. 10b 88

It's possible one of these might be him but the lack of corroborating records in the official sources tends to lead me to think that Samuel Burns was not his "official" name. Have you checked Soldiers Died for a list of all Manchester men who died on that day (and a day or so either side) with a local connection and checked them out on the CWGC website. If this doesn't turn anything up then you could perhaps cast further afield for other "local men" who are listed in SDGW for the appropriate days.

Good hunting.

Andy.

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Glyn - yeah , fascinating. Innit. I'd downloaded it in the great hope of there being a date of death on it.

Andy - I havnt got the full transcript - I tend to just take notes. Wherever me laddo was born, he'd worked and lived in Stockport for at least 15 years (living at 15 Angel Street and working for Tonge's coal merchants). Press quoted his enlistment date as 28/8/14. Terry D is also interested in the exact wording about the "died of wounds", so I'll try and remember to get it next week when I'm in the Library.

There's zilch obvious in SDGW/ODGW. One possibility is a Samuel Knowles who DoW on the 16 July, serving with 12/Manc. I've only just come across the probably tenuous connection (date of death/first name) but I'll dig around and see what's what.

John

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There's zilch obvious in SDGW/ODGW. One possibility is a Samuel Knowles who DoW on the 16 July, serving with 12/Manc. I've only just come across the probably tenuous connection (date of death/first name) but I'll dig around and see what's what.

S. Knowles is listed on the Stockport War Memorial so probably not him.

Interestingly I can't tie down a S. Burns at Stockport in the 1901 Census and, if he had been there at least 15 years before enlisting in 1914 then I should have thought he would have been listed.

Andy.

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S. Knowles is listed on the Stockport War Memorial so probably not him.

Interestingly I can't tie down a S. Burns at Stockport in the 1901 Census and, if he had been there at least 15 years before enlisting in 1914 then I should have thought he would have been listed.

Yeah, I know.

John "Straw Clutcher" Hartley

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john,i tried finding this bloke last year,i think you could be right about it not being his correct name,but i can save you a trip to the library,heres some info from the advertiser

pte samuel burns

it says he DOW on 16th july,he was 34 years old,all the rest of the info is what you have posted,except that he is listed as living at 49 angel st.

BUT,theres something that doesnt add up,he appears in the 21st july issue,thats 5 days after he is supposed to have died,[16th was a sunday] dont you think it got to the papers very quickly,thats quick even for someone who died at home,it doesnt state where he died,but considering how fast he appeared in the paper,it sounds like he died locally,five days from his family recieving the news and being printed in the paper,is fast,even by todays standards,AND they even managed to publish his picture,sorry i couldnt help,but i thought the date of the obit might shed some light,bernard

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he may have been serving in SA in 1901,thats maybe why you cant find him,he started work at tonges around the time the boer war ended,but he did exist.

charles burns father,house painter

mary burns mother.born burnage

bros+sisters

joseph,henry

mary

charles

frances

maria

samuel

jessie born reddish

all the rest were born in stockport.sam was born 1879,the family moved to 42 brook st,reddish just before jessie was born,in 1880,his brother joe became a house painter and still lived in reddish,charles also became a house painter and moved to liverpool,his dad was still alive in 1901 but i think his mother had died,doesnt help you find him,but at least you know he existed john

bernard

ps,theres a soldier who was a manchester bobby listed on the m/c police memorial,i found out that he didnt die,he was badly wounded and taken POW,to this day they still dont know that he survived,he was listed in the papers as DOWs,maybe thats what happened to samuel

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Bernard

Thanks for all this. Is your source for the family information in yuor second post just from the Census or is there another source that may give be worth me follwoing a bit more deeply?

Youre right about between the short time between date of death and publication date - hadnt noticed that. Might have a look for local burial records - he'd be in Willow Grove, probably.

John

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john,i reckon you may be right about the burial records,albeit hes been discharged,the s.burns that you found in the MIC could be your man,if you are ever looking for someone who was born in 1881 or before,google FAMILY SEARCH,you get the full details and address for nowt,i checked the original CWGC register for willow grove,no luck,bernard

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OK. This one has now moved into the "Strange but True" category.

An examination of the local newspapers confirms that my man, S Burns, appears to be exactly the same person as my man, Samuel Knowles.

Both obituaries carry the same photo and the same basic information, as follows:-

Cheshire Daily Echo, 21/7/16 "Private Saml Burns, of the Manchester Regiment, died on July 16 of wounds received in action. He was 34 years of age and prior to enlisting on the 28th August 1914, had been employed for a period of fifteen years by messrs Tonge, coal merchants, Stockport. He lived at 49 Angel Street, Stockport."

Stockport Advertiser, 28/7/16 "Pte Samuel Knowles (4085), Manchester Regiment, died of wounds on July 16th. he wasa single man,a ged 34 years, being the youngest sone of the late Mr William Knowles, blacksmith, formerly of Cooper Street, Stockport. He enlisted on the 28th August 1914. Previous to enlistment he was for 15 years in the employ of Messrs Tonge, coal merchants, of Stockport."

His entry in the 1917 Cheshire Year Book is under the name Knowles.

I feel reasonably confident that this is not a mix-up in the offices of one of the two newspapers and this is genuinely the same man. My quest now is to try and work out "what's what". My current thought is that he was indeed the son of William Knowles. William died at some point and perhaps his widow then marries Charles Burns. However, I can't see anything in either FreeBMD or CheshireBMD to stand this up one way or the other. Different branches of his relatives may have thought that he used a particular surname and this is how the dual inscription has occured. Other than that sort of explanation, then "S Burns" is a complete mystery.

Any further advice gratefully received.

John

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I'm more confident that I'm somehow right about this. A scan through the GRO Births doesnt turn up a Samuel Burns of the right age - but does produce two possible Samuel Knowles', both born Stockport.

I've stuck my hand in the my pocket and sent off the £14 for both certificates. Hopefully, one will confirm parents names as William and Mary - which will support my theory that William dies and Mary remarries Burns. Or not........

John

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in 1881

william knowles

cotton operative

age 32

unmarried

living with his parents at 31 george st,stockport

bernard

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Bernard

He just doesnt "feel right" for being Samuel's father.

Main reason being that it seems unlikely that, at some point after the age of 32, he'd become a skilled man like a blacksmith after working for years unskilled in a mill.

Might be wrong, of course. Nowt would surprise me about this one. And spotting the right person is a problem when it's a large town - easy to be more than one person with the same name.

John

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hiya john,the biggest puzzle is how did he/they get in the papers so quickly,5 days is pretty fast,AND we dont know how long the papers had the info,sam knowles details were in the papers nearly 2 weeks later,which is about average,AND both papers were printed on the thurs evening and distributed on friday,which narrows down sam burns inclusion in the paper too 3/4 days after he died,bernard

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I've stuck my hand in the my pocket and sent off the £14 for both certificates. Hopefully, one will confirm parents names as William and Mary - which will support my theory that William dies and Mary remarries Burns. Or not........

......Or not!

One is definately the right Samuel Knowles - fathe , William a blacksmith - but mother is Sarah Ann.

I suspect that the whatever story there was about Burns/Knowles is now lost in time.

John

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  • 13 years later...
On 08/12/2006 at 12:10, John_Hartley said:

I suspect that the whatever story there was about Burns/Knowles is now lost in time.

 

I don't know if you ever got to the bottom of this, but Samuel Knowles had an unmarried wife named Jane Burns...

 

Fold3_Page_1-1.jpg.ce463fb2eeb709c229a379ee5f267ed8.jpg

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Hi Paul,

Looks like someone followed this up CWGC

I'm in the throws of an extensive search for Manchester Regiment men. Feel free to PM if you find others. We may not be on the case...

Tim

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Hi Tim,

 

I think he was always on there as Samuel Knowles, the confusion seems to be with the alternative name BURNS which was reported in the local newspaper and somehow made it onto the Stockport memorial. I can't tell if this was a genuine alias or just a mix up in the local press, but the pension card at least provides an explanation.

 

Will drop you a PM later as I have one or two Mancs on my radar.

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