Researching my Grandad

[dosborne]

Hi All

I am trying to trace a few details regards my Grandfather. I have tried the UK national archive route + the long long trail(Got the idea from looking at other threads) but did not come up with much. (But then I am a newbie so may be messing my search up)

Here is as much as I know – His name was James Alfred Hector Dunwell, my Dad seems to recall that he served in the Scot’s Guards .My Dad also remembers that he mentioned that he had taken part in the battle of Delville Wood.

Other info I was able to gleam from a genealogy website was:

Fought in 1914 rebellion in South West Africa(Assume this is what the first pic refers to where I can make out sergeant stripes (He is on the left) – What does the white band on his left arm signify ?

Officer in 2nd Battalion, Scots guards – Graduated (?) 1916 with sword of honour (What does this mean ?)

Fought in France WWI – I assume the second pic is when he was in Europe (Circa 1917 as per the back of the photo) – What happened to his rank ?

Unfortunately my Dad did not take much time to listen / remember to the ramblings of an old man -- which he now regrets to this day. I would really like to try and build up some info about the man (What unit he served in / most likely places that the units served etc) and present it to my father.

I would really appreciate any type of assistance that the boffins out there may be able to provide.

Regards

Dave

(Pics attached – I hope)

[Stebie9173]

Found him in the London Gazette as a Scots Guard:

LG 26-8-1918

War Office,

26th August, 1918.

REGULAR FORCES.

GUARDS MACHINE GUN REGIMENT.

The undermentioned 2nd Lts. to be 2nd Lts. 10 May 1918, with seniority specified against their names: —

T. C. Burn (C. Gds., Spec. Res.). 27 Feb. 22 May 1918.

J. H. Dunwell (S. Gds., Spec. Res). 27 Feb. 1918.

R. F. Bernal (S. Gds., Spec. Res.). 27 Feb. 1918.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=

the entry is a bit mysterious but i think he is being attached to the Scots Guards in France from a Reserve battalion in England.

Guards officers wore rank on their shoulders and not on their sleeves, by the way.

His Service File is probably still held at Wellington Barracks, Birdcage Walk, in London.

Steve.

[dosborne]

Hi Steve

Thanks for that prompt reply -- What was the purpose of the gazette and why does it "appear mysterious" (Other than the fact that it states 2nd Lt's being 2nd Lts)

Thanks again

Dave

PS : I assume the photos could be viewed ? They appeared to have disappeared when I last checked

[Stebie9173]

There seems to be a file at the National Archives:

WO 374/21402 DUNWELL, Lieut J H 1917-1920

Don't know whether this would be a copy of what would be held at the Guards Barracks, or instead of...

The London Gazette was (and still is) the newspaper of "official record". All promotions are official once published in the Gazette.

I did mean the 2nd Lt to be 2nd Lt bit when I said "mysterious"!

And yes, I can see the photos.

Steve.

[dosborne]

Sorry to be peppering you with questions but I am really excited about getting somewhere with this "quest"

Does the 21402 refer to his service number ?

I don't live in the UK -- Is there some sort of professional service offered where they would copy documents at say the guards barrack and send/ e-mail them to me ?

Thanks

Dave

[Stebie9173]

You can write to the Guards Archive at:

Scots Guards Archives

Wellington Barracks

Birdcage Walk

London

SW1E 6HQ

and request his Service Record. I believe a fee (around £30 applies). The reference will not be relevant to their Archive, though it may help them find the man's entry of the NA website.

I'm not up on Guards Officers records as to whether there will be a copy in both palces or just at the National Archives. Someone else here may know, though!

The 21402 number refers to the "Piece number" of an officers file at the National Archives. These are physical files that will often contain details of his enlistment, service, wounds, etc. so well worth getting!

At the National Archives, I believe they offer an online services where they will scan a number of pages for £8.50 and e-mail them to you.

You can find the Catalogue entries here:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/Default.asp?j=1

Click the Search the Cataolgue button and enter Dunwell in the top box and WO374 in the bottom one.

You will get a list of two.

Click the one we want.

There should be a Request This button to click.

I'm afraid your on your own from there as I have not used the service before!

The file is likely to be more than 10 pages long so you may need multiple requests to get the whole file.

Don't forget to specify who he is so that you don't get the wrong man' details sent!

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Found his commission in the Gazette:

LG 20-3-1918

War Office,

20th March, 1918

SPECIAL RESERVE OF OFFICERS.

The undermentioned, from an Officer Cadet Unit, to be 2nd Lts. 27th Feb. 1918: —

FOOT GUARDS.

S. Gds.—

Ralph Frederic Bernal.

James Hector Dunwell.

Henry Ralph Moreton Havelock-Allan.

William Hubert Stewart.

Alfred Bence Trower.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=

And I can't find a Medal Index Card either, so it's not just you!!!

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

An interesting entry....

LG 23-2-1920

War Office,

23rd February, 1920.

REGULAR FORCES.

GUARDS MACHINE GUN REGIMENT.

2nd Lt. J. H. Dunwell (S. Gds., Spec. Res.) ceases to be empld. with the Regt. 18 Aug. 1919.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=

http://www.1914-1918.net/guardsmgr.htm

I've also dug back half a dozen pages on the original Gazette entry I found and it appears that he was classed as going straight to the Guard Machine Gun Regiment. (I have edited my first post above, in post #2)

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

I really can't find an MIC.

I'm starting to think that he may well have been in a South African unit in the South African Brigade:

http://www.1914-1918.net/south_africa.htm

They joined 9th (Scottish) Division in 1916 and fought at Delville Wood.

It is possible that he would have South African medals rather than British ones in that case....

Steve.

[dosborne]

Hi

I finally managed to source the info mentioned from the archives and am rubbing my hands in anticipation. My apologies once again for all the questions :

If he was in a SA unit, is the reference to Scot's Guard's possibly as a result of him having joined the Transvaal Scottish ? Does the uniform in the picture taken circa 1914 match a Scottish Regiment ?

The fact he ceased to be employed by the regiment in 1919 -- Does this mean he was discharged after the war ?

Thanks again for all the info -- I truly appreciate the effort

[Stebie9173]

Most men who served to the end of the war were discharged during 1919. Many stayed in uniform in case the Armistice didn't hold. It was quite a bone of contention between men who had joined up til the war finished, and the Army that wanted to retain them "just in case". There were even mutinies at that point.

I suspect the Transvaal Scottish might be a little bit of a leap of faith, as later in the war men did not always get posted to the units they preferred. James' commission is pretty late.

If you need to ask for more info from his file (I suspect 10 pages won't cover it all) then don't forget to say that you already have the first 10 pages next time!

What I do wonder is whether he was a SA officer? I'm afraid I wouldn't know a SA officers uniform from any other...

Steve.

[dosborne]

Thank You -- I will advise what I found once the info arrives

Dave

[SteveE]

I really can't find an MIC.

I'm starting to think that he may well have been in a South African unit in the South African Brigade:

I've been thinking that as well.

As far as I can recollect NO British i.e. UK units served in South West Africa in 1914 and 1915, this would point to his being in a South African unit to start with, his 'irregular' uniform tends to point to this as well.

Fighting at Delville Woods (with his South African unit) as part of the Scottish Division fits in nicely too.

Will be interesting to find out if Stebie's nailed another one.....

Regards

Steve

[dosborne]

Hi All

I am still awaiting the info from the archives. Based on the last reply from SteveE, I began searching for info on South Africa's involvement in the 1914 rebellion in SWA.

Although I did not find any info relating to my grandfather, I did stumble across a site that contains a number of database lists on WWI (Amongst others). I thought it might be helpful as a research resource for others.

The link is http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ridge/2216/

Regards

Dave

[dosborne]

Oh wow oh wow oh wow -- You guys are seriously good.

Based on the advice received, I have been able to gleam the following from the national archives :

1) My grandfather joined the 5th Mounted Bdge (Date ?) for 2 and a half years and then joined the Scot's guards

2) He was married before he met my grandmother (irrelevant to this forum -- but needless to say I will not be sharing this with the family !)

3) He appeared to have been wounded in 1917

4) There is a mention of him being part of the Royal Fusiliers

The info I have received has created even more questions since the documents are difficult to decipher/ understand -- I am still awaiting the next 12 pages from the Nat Archives. Once I have these I will post links to these pages and hopefully somebody will assist me in creating a logical, chronological order of events ?

In the meantime, thank you for your inforamtion + advice.

Dave

[Stebie9173]

Please send cheque or postal order to.....

Seriously... Great to see you are getting the information you want.

We shall be happy to help you decode the documents when you are ready.

Steve.

[SteveE]

Looks like a result then.....

As Stebie says, post the details when you're ready and we'll do our best to decode.

Already interested by point 4, was this mention of Royal Fusiliers anything to do with the South Africans after they went to East Africa by any chance?

Steve

[dosborne]

Hi All

What the hell, I couldn't wait for the remaining docs so I have posted the first 11 in the meantime. As I mentioned earlier I have been trying to draw some conclusions from the content, but quite frankly I am as confused as ever.

Would appreciate your thoughts on the content.

Regards

Dave

Documents Link

[Stebie9173]

Hi, Dave.

Let's go through one by one.

Page 1

Always the most "boring".

Basically a front cover! A few dates after the war in tidying up, including the dreaded "weeded" in 1936. Didn't they know Family Historians would want to look at them in 70 years time?!

Doc 2

A list of letters to and from the War office. Next!

Doc 3.

Demobilsation.

When James was commissioned into the Scots Guards he joined the Special Reserve (basically the main Reserve battalion of a Regiment). hence he is demobilised from Special reserve as stated at the top.

Letter dated 31st October 1919 stating that he is no longer an Army Officer from 18th August 1919, and telling him to leave the Army after letting them know his forwarding address.

His current address is listed as Blomfontein, South Africa.

Doc 4

Starting to get interesting.

Protection Certificate issued on demobilsation (I'm not 100% sure what these were used for).

Disembodied (discharged) from Special Reserve of Officers.

Substantive (permanent) rank of Second Lieutenant.

Born 1891.

A farmer before being in the Army.

Discharged from Guards Machine Gun Regiment.

Married.

Address as previous.

Discharged 19th August 1919 as before.

Doc 5

List of communications regarding leave in early 1919 possibly due to wounds/illness and railway warrants. (Might come back to this when in better context!)

Doc 6.

As above, confirming that he was unfit with leave extended to March 1919.

Orders to attend Medical Board sent 6-3-1919.

Medical board on 18-3-1919. Found unfit for 2 months for A & B Medical grades, estimated 1 month until fit for C Medical grade. Leave extended to 17-4-1919.

Medical Board 16-4-1919. Found fit for C Medical grade, with estimate of 1 month until fully fit. Ordered to join a unit at Pirbright.

(There should be blue Medical Board reports later in the file that will give further details).

Doc 7.

Disembodied 19-8-1919.

[Stebie9173]

Doc 8.

Getting interesting!

Attestation Form (enlistment to British Army).

"From overseas 18-8-1917" meaning he served with an overseas unit (i.e. South African prior to enlisting).

This is a Other Ranks enlistment form not an officers.

Enlisted 10th August 1917.

Reg number G/58429 Royal Fusiliers attached to O.T.C. (Officer Training Corps).

Born: South Africa

Address: Rosedene, Fricksburg (?), Orange Free State.

Bristish subject aged 27 (ORs did not give exact dates of birth).

Occupation: Farmer.

Not married.

Served with 5th Mounted Brigade in South African Army for 2 and a half years.

Discharged on 24th May 1917.

Doc 9.

Back of Doc 8.

Next of kin: Father, James Dunwell, same address as James Jnr.

Details of height and weight. Chest expansion is extra inches when breathing out....

Served in the UK from 10th August 1917 to 26th February 1918.

Doc "11600"

Casualty Form (service form).

Having enlisted to the Royal Fusiliers (it looks like this was purely for training purposes) he was transferred as a Cadet to the Scots Guards with a view to being granted a commission in the Scot Guards. Looks like he was a Private in the British Army for one day! Joined direct Household Brigade Officer Cadet Unit to train as an officer.

This form lists his religion as Church of England.

Doc 12.

Pretty much a repeat of the previous doc.

Anyway, this takes us up to the point that he was commissioned.

In summary, we have previous service with 5th Mounted Brigade in the South African Army, then a technical enlistment as a Private into the Royal Fusiliers for training purposes, training for 6 months as a Officer Cadet, then being "discharged to commission" on 26th February 1918. We know he was commissioned the next day 27th February 1918 as a Second-Lieutenant in the Scots Guards.

We await the next chapter....

I would expect to see:

His officers attestation form.

Further casualty forms for overseas duty (UNLESS they are only kept with the Scots Guards, or if he didn't serve overseas with the Guards).

Blue Medical Board reports on his unfitness for duty in 1918-1919.

Details of marriage (though it is odd that his Next of Kin wasn't changed on his OR attestation)

Bit of a cliffhanger really!

Steve.

[dosborne]

Hi Stebie

Again, thanks for the reply. I am going to try and summarise things for myself chronologically :

1) Joined 5th Mounted Mounted Brigade (SA) Circa 1915, served 2 and a half years and was discharged in May 1917

2) Enlisted 10 August 1917 (Cadet) Royal Fusilliers

3) Discharged 26 Feb 1918

4) Commissioned 27 Feb 1918 (Scot's Guard's)

5) At some stage before 1919 is found medically unfit and ordered to attend medical board exam

6) Discharged 19 August 1919

I may be jumping the gun (At least until the remaining documents arrive) but:

1) If one looks at the order of events, was he then a cadet from August 1917 to Feb 1918 (I looked at your comments re He was a cadet for one day, yet he enlisted in August 1917 ?)

2) Would his reg number G/58429 have changed when he joined the Scot's Guards ?

3) When he joined the Scot's Guards, would there have been some training period before he went to France (If he did indeed go to the front) ie Assuming he went to the front, would I be correct in trying to research the 2nd battalion / MG Regiment from sometime after 1918

As I said I may be jumping the gun and the remaining documents will reveal more. But a great big thank you for your assistance thus far

Dave

[Stebie9173]

Dave,

I agree with your summary.

In answer to your questions,

1) Sorry, I meant he was a Private for one day. After that he was an officer cadet.

2) Only "other ranks" (private up to Sergeant Major) had numbers during WW1. Officers didn't get numbers until the 1930s, and even then they weren't used as the final identifier of a man.

3) His period of training as an officer would have been from the 10th August 1917 to the 26th February 1918, at which point the King commissioned him as a temporary officer in the British Army, dated 27th February 1918. He should have had most of the training he needed by then. The rest would have been "on the job" training, though he would not necessarily have been posted overseas straight away (the 5th battalion of the Guards Machine Gun regiment was the Reserve battalion and was based at Pirbright - where James was posted to in 1919 on recovery to near full health) or even at all...

The Guards Machine Gun Regiment is certainly an area for Research, subject to when he was posted overseas.

You've probably found this link in your searches on the South African campaigns:

http://rapidttp.com/milhist/vol132hp.html

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

The War Diaries at Kew are listed as:

3rd Brigade (i.e. with 2nd Scot Guards)

WO 95/1224 Guards Machine Gun Company 1915 Dec. - 1918 Feb.

2nd Brigade (i.e. with 1st Scots Guards)

WO 95/1220 Guards Machine Gun Company 1915 Sept. - 1918 Feb.

And when they moved to Divisional level (I think the date should be March 1918 not March 1917)

WO 95/1206 4 Guards Battalion Machine Gun Corps 1917 Mar. - 1919 Mar.

As an officer he would probably get a mention or two.

Steve.

[dosborne]

Hi Stebie

I finally received the docs from the Archives but none of them appear to relate to James's service after having been commissioned -- nor are there any further medical details. There are 2 pages outstanding so I am still hopeful -- For some reason the pic hosting site keeps returning errors so I can't post them (I will try later on this PM)

I imagine I am going to have to write to the Guards Archives and hope that what they have is not a repeat of what I got from the National Archives.

There is a reference to him having left the 3rd SA Horse Regt before travelling to England (Despite the other docs reflecting that he was in the 5th Mounted Bde -- He certainly got around !

In the meantime, thanks again for all your assistance

Dave

[Stebie9173]

I'm afraid the South African Order of battle is a mystery to me, but if organsied on a similar basis to other Armies, I would suggest that the 3rd South African Horse Regiment was his smaller unit (like 2nd Scots Guards for example) and the 5th Mounted Brigade was his larger unit (like the 3rd Brigade to which the 2nd Scots Guards were attached or the Guards division).

Steve.