VC winner Serjeant Donald Forrester Brown

[Alan_J]

This New Zealand VC winner is buried in Warlencourt Cemetery. His citation in full reads as below: -

"For most conspicuous bravery and determination in attack (south-east of High Wood, France, on September 15, 1916), when the company to which he belonged had suffered very heavy casualties in officers and men from machine gun fire. At great personal risk this N.C.O.advanced with a comrade and succeeded in reaching a point within 30 yds. of the enemy guns. Four of the gun crew were killed and the gun captured. The advance of the company was continued until it was again held up by machine gun fire. Again Serjt. Brown and his comrade, with great gallantry, rushed the gun and killed the crew. After this second position had been won, the company came under very heavy shell fire, and the utter contempt for danger and coolness under fire of this N.C.O. did much to keep up the spirit of his men. On a subsequent occasion in attack, Serjt. Brown showed most conspicuous gallantry. He attacked, single handed, a machine gun which was holding up the attack, killed the gun crew, and captured the gun. Later, whilst sniping the retreating enemy, this very gallant soldier was killed."

Perhaps Serjeant Brown was the instigator of these attacks, and he also performed a later single-handed attack (this must have been on the 1st of October 1916, the day he was killed), and there is no doubt he deserved the Victoria Cross, but I wondered if anyone can shed any light on his"comrade" who seems to have been involved in most of the same actions on the 15th of September and you might think deserved some kind of decoration as well - I would like to find out whether he got one.

Does anyone happen to know any more about this episode and the 'comrade'?

Thanks

Alan

[michaeldr]

Alan,

I am very surprised that none of our Kiwi Pals has come in on this one yet

Until they do, I can offer a guess, but that is all it is; a shot in the dark

See http://www.dnzb.govt.nz/dnzb/default.asp?F...ersonEssay=3T40

for the details of another 2nd Otago man who was decorated [DCM] for action on the same day, 15 Sep 1916. Note that he too went on to get the VC later in the war

However, Travis is as I said, only a guess

I hope that by bringing this back to the top we can get an authoritative answer from NZ

regards

Michael

[ZackNZ]

You could also read "In the face of the enemy" by Glyn Harper and Colin Richardson (Harper Collins 2006)

Zacknz

[Stebie9173]

I have a copy of VCs on the Somme at home. I shall see what mention is made.

Steve.

P.S. Remind me if I forget!

[Stebie9173]

These are the New Zealanders D.C.M.s from around the time. None seems to be a good "fit".

London Gazette 25-11-1916

NEW ZEALAND FORCE.

23/1552 L./Sjt. H. Bellamy, Infy.

For conspicuous gallantry in action. Although wounded, he assumed command of his Company, displaying great courage and initiative. He set a splendid example to his men throughout the operations.

12/3398 Pte. A. McClennan, Inf.

For conspicuous gallantry in action. He led a bombing party with great courage and determination. Later, he took a small party to the assistance of another Battalion, thus saving the right flank.

9/523 Pte. R. C. Travis, Pnrs.

For conspicuous gallantry in action. He went out by himself and accounted for several enemy snipers who were firing at a working party. He has on many previous occasions done very fine work.

10/2379 Sjt. F. C. Tunley, Inf.

For conspicuous gallantry in action. He assumed command of his Company, organising and consolidating a section of the line. He showed great courage and initiative, and set a splendid example to his men.

Steve.

[Alan_J]

Thnaks for the replies so far - I was also a little surprised that no New Zealand Pal could answer this, although they may yet.

Michael, I thought at first Travis would be a possibility, the date and the battalions fit! But Stebie in looking up the actual citation has posted that he 'went out by himself....', which wouldn't.

The other three also as suggested seem unlikely......but it just seems implausible to me that two men were involved in most of the action, one got the highest honour there is and the other got........nothing!?

I wonder whether he got the MM, for which I believe the citations were not published in the Gazette (as in the details, although the awards were)?

Zack, do you have a copy of the book you mentioned, if so would you be kind enough to have a look through and see if Brown is mentioned, and if so whether anyone else is mentioned in the same context?

Many thanks

Alan

[Stebie9173]

VCs of the Somme by Gerald Gliddon tells me it was Sgt. J. Rodgers who accompanied Sgt. Brown on his V.C. raid.

I quote:

"The New Zealand Division was given the task of capturing the series of trenches on the sloping ground between Delville and High Woods. The 2nd Aucklands and the 2nd Otagos of the 2nd New Zealand Bde went forward and the former battalion captured Coffee Trench easily but the Otagos met considerable enemy resistance at a position called Crest Trench. A German machine gun was in particular giving great trouble. Sgts D. F. Brown and J. Rodgers crawled forward to within 30 yards of the machine gun before rushing forward and killing the crew. The attackers then moved quickly on towards the Switch Trench virtually ignoring the Allied barrage which they were catching up with. Sgt. Brown and his company destroyed another German machine gun position and with the aid of bombs and bayonets the Switch Trench was captured. They next moved onto the Flers Line where they remained for five hours and Brown's company was almost totally decimated. The company eventually came out of the line, still with their two Sergeants, but only with 49 men."

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

In all likelihood this fellow:

London Gazette 9-12-1916

Awarded the Military Medal.

NEW ZEALAND CONTINGENT.

9/77 Sjt. J. Rodgers, Otago R.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

The rest of his exploits described:

Brown was awarded the V.C. for his heroism but was killed sixteen days later near Eaucourt l'Abbaye, on October 1st. As before Brown was in the thick of the fighting. The Otagos attacked Circus Trench which led to the Abbey Road in front of Eaucourt l'Abbaye. The artillery had pounded the German positions early morning, and at one minute before zero hour, which was 3.15 p.m. about 60 oil mortars were fired which set fire to the German trenches and created a black oily smoke. The New Zealanders charged the enemy on a front of 1800 yards. The 2nd Bde. penetrated to a depth of 800 yards. As on September 15th Brown took on a German machine gun crew and bayoneted them. However his luck finally ran out and he was shot long range machine gun and died of wounds.

Steve.

[christine liava'a]

Surname RODGERS

Given Name Jesse

Category Nominal Roll Vol. 1

Regimental Number 9/77

Rank Lance-Corpl

Body or Draft Main Body

Unit or Regiment Otago Mounted Rifles

Marital Status S

Last NZ Address Dee St Oamaru

Next of Kin Title T

Next of Kin Surname RODGERS

Next of Kin Relationship Father

Next of Kin Address Dee St Oamaru

Jesse Rodgers 9/77

MC 2nd Lt, 2nd Bn, Otago Regiment

LG 26 Setember 1917 p 9981

citation LG 9 January 1918 p 662

This officer was in command of his company during an attack on the enemy's position. The whole operation was most successfully carried out, and although wounded during the attack he remained on duty in the trenches until his company was relieved some considerable time later. He is a born leader, and has done exceptionally good work

MM Sergeant, 2nd Bn, Otago Regiment

LG 9 December 1916, p 12058, Rec No 138

Assault on the Switch Trench, South east of High Wood, 15th September 1916

During the assault on the Switch Trench on the 15thSeptember all of the officers of this non-commissioned officer's company became casulties very early. This NCO immediately assumed command of the company. and after successfully taking the trench showed great coolness and iniative in organizing working parties and consolidating the trench under heavy shellfire.

Died of wounds France 30 July 1917

from "Honours and Awards to the NZEF in the Great War 1914-1918" by Wayne MacDonald

....................

Oamaru War Memorial

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/war/memorial-Oamaru

Cenotaph entry

http://www.aucklandmuseum.com/databases/ge...riginalID=13237

[Alan_J]

Fantastic - big thank you to Steve for looking up and finding the name of the companion - and I am glad his bravery was recognised by the MM.

Thnaks also to Christine for adding some more information, although the 15th of September MM information doesn't seem to exactly tie up with Gliddon's account?

I'll check out the links as well - thanks to all!

Alan

[ZackNZ]

Alan

Apologies I should have responded sooner. Yes In The Face of the Enemy by Glyn Harper and Colin Richardson there are four pages (pages 97 – 100) specifically on D F Brown.

The relevant bits are summarised as follows:

· Brown was in two military actions and was observed three times acting with great courage to enable ground to be taken i.e. on 15 September 1915 Brown along with Corporal Jesse Rodgers rushed a machine gun, killed the crew of four and captured the gun and enabled the New Zealand infantry to completely control the Switch Trench system. (Rodgers got the MC but DOW in France 30 July 1917.)

· On October 1 when the attack was held up by a machine gun Brown alone went forward, found the gun crew, shot them and enabled the attack to continue. He was killed (head) by long-range machine-gun fire.

· His VC took a lot of lobbying from 2nd Otago Battalion officers with senior officers to get Brown’s repeated acts of courage acknowledged.

Zack

[Alan_J]

Zack,

Many thanks for looking this up - confirmation that Jesse Rodgers was the man incvolved with Brown. However much lobbying it took, at least Brown was awarded the VC, and 'his companion' (my original question) also had his bravery recognised too.

Thanks

Alan

[ZackNZ]

Alan

I've just looked up my copy of Official History of the Otago Regiment, NZEF in the Great War 1914 - 1918 by Lieut A E Byrne, MC and he has a similar version corroborating Serg J Rodgers involvement with Sergt Brown recorded on page 135 as also outlined in the Harper / Richardson version.

Cheers

Zack

[Alan_J]

Great, that would certainly seem to corroborate the supposition!

Thanks again

Alan

[sotonmate]

FERNAND to see

This is part of your request for information today

Sotonmate

[Anthony Bagshaw]

Heres a photo of his grave from May last year:

[Peter Bennett]

Name: RODGERS, JESSE

Initials: J

Nationality: New Zealand

Rank: Second Lieutenant

Regiment/Service: Otago Regiment, N.Z.E.F.

Unit Text: 2nd Bn.

Age: 30

Date of Death: 30/07/1917

Service No: 9/77

Awards: MC, MM

Additional information: Son of Thomas and Jane Rodgers, of Dee St., Oamaru, Otago, New Zealand.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: I. V. 22.

Cemetery: TROIS ARBRES CEMETERY, STEENWERCK

[AndyMacdonald]

Hi, there

Yes the soldier with Brown was Jesse Rogers. You will find a number of references to both Brown and Rogers and their service in my book, On My Way to the Somme: New Zealanders and the bloody offensive of 1916. I have traced a number of references to both men, spoken to Brown's family, and interviewed men who knew both. The results, as said, are in my book, and it offers a different insight to the work of Harper and Richardson. One of the vets I interviewed knew Rogers well and was with him at the time of his death. Rogers' career is followed up until his death in my book.

Andy M

[Guest John D F Shepherd]

Hi

Jesse Rodgers is my Great Uncle.

Yes he was with Serjeant Donald Brown and is the comrade in the Victoria Cross Citaton

Submissions were forwarded for decorations by the New Zealand Headquarters Division . Jesse received the MM for assumming Command of the Company after the five Officers had been killed by machine gun fire before Crest trench was reached.

As a result of his leadership skills he was awarded a battlefield commission. The family beleive he thought more of that than the decoration.

However Serjeant Brown's file was returned stating that as he had been killed in action no posthumous decoration,other than the Victoria Cross is allowed. It can safely be assumed that the recommendation for Serjeant Brown decoration was not the VC.

The Officers and men of the 2nd Battalion Otago Regiment were understandably upset that no award had been made. For the next six months comrades endeavoured to gain official recognition for Brown's deeds.

The original stumbling block was that all Officers had been killed on that day. It is a requirement that an Officer or Officers must witness the action in question for the Victoria Cross to be awarded.. However the two surviving NCO's namely Jesse Rodgers and Robert Douglass had been commisioned and as eyewitnesses could sign the affidavits supoporting the application for the VC. It would be Rodgers affidavit that would prove to be the decisive factor in acheiving a Victoria Cross for Brown ,as he was actually with him. Jesse signed his affidivat on the 10 April 1917 and was killed on the 30 July l 1917 so it was all just in time.

It would be nice to think that Jesse's name did'nt appear on the citaton as he was part of the supporting documentation. The plain truth is that in the rules and regulations of the Victoria Cross that only the name of the recipient can appear on the citaton. Credit also needs to go to the Commanding Officer Lt Col G S Smith DSO who signed and fully supported the appilication.

The Victoria Cross was awarded to Serjeant Brown Brown on 8 June 1917 so Jesse was alive to heard the news.

Jesse has not been forgotton by our family . His Great Great Neice visited his grave in 2005 and I am sure she will hand on the story of Jesse to future generations.

Please note that Jesse's name is Rodgers not Rogers. One Historian mis spelt his name and error has unfortunately continued.

[Alan_J]

I've only just come acrioss this latest reply to my original query - very intersting comments on why Rodgers was not also awarded the VC. Be interested in any one elses views on this.

Alan

[Guest John D F Shepherd]

I've only just come acrioss this latest reply to my original query - very intersting comments on why Rodgers was not also awarded the VC. Be interested in any one elses views on this.

Alan

Pte William Taylor who served with Jesse Rodgers in the 10th North Otago Company in his war memoirs entitled 'The Twilight Hour' decicated to the memory of Jesse wrote

Of Jesse very litttle has been written. I am not writing much about him now,just enough to make a point. Jesse was always in Command,no matter how sticky the situation. He always had the full confidence of his men. I can still hear his voice as he moved from post to post when the men in grey were pressing. He was an inspiration to his men,careless of his own life. God knows how the men responded,how they loved him. He never received the Victoria Cross. A wooden cross over his grave and his name on an honours board in a memorial hall somwhere and his memory in a few aging men like myself -it dos'nt seem enough somehow. I have always wanted to pay tribute to his memory,a brave and cheerful Officer who gave his all. I hope that when I have gone the fact that I have written these lines will keep his memory bright just a little longer.

Throughout his life William Taylor never forgot Jesse and although never able to return to Belgium to visit his grave he made his family promise that one day one would go on his behalf. Some eighty three years after Rodgers death and 20 years after William's own passing his great Grandson fulfilled his promise and journeyed to the cemetery of Trois-Abres. Once there he wrote in the visitors book the words this old soldier wanted to say all those years ago- Jesse Rodgers if he never knew fear he never showed it the bravest man I ever knew.

As his Great Nephew I am still trying to keep his memory bright .

[Guest Mina]

Made myself an account just to say that I'm doing a presentation for work in 2 weeks and we each get given a topic.

I was given Donald Brown VC and had no idea who he was or what he had done. I came here looking for a more information about Donald Brown but I absolutely cannot tell the story of how he received his VC without including Jesse Rodgers. Know that 100 years after himself and Donald Brown VC have passed, we're still telling stories of their bravery.

Their memory will never be forgotten.

 

Thank you so much for sharing more of their story here. I'll be reading every book posted in this thread for more information on both the men.

 

Mina.