Education, Education, Education?

[Gunner Bailey]

Yesterday (11/11) I was wandering the Beaumont Hamel Battlefield / Memorial Park at the same time as a coachload of English 14 year olds who were on a conducted tour. Having seen their seeming total disinterest (only three out of a party of about 50 seemed to actually look at the graves and the battlefield) I came to the conclusion - what was the point of them bothering? The group spent the whole time just walking and chattering to one another, the teacher didn't bother to stop and tell them about the various cemetaries or the battle.

It was just a walk in the park anywhere. They were oblivious of their surroundings.

I'm not asking for an air of reverence, just interest. As far as I could see there was no point in this group coming. It only seemed to touch a tiny minority of them.

Does anyone else have this impression of the school groups?

Gunner Bailey

[armourersergeant]

3 out of 50 is not too bad an average, alas disappointed in the teacher, but maybe they had beaten him into submission. There in is the challenge to get the younger generation interested.

Of course in a few years some of them may turn around and remeber that thye had been in that cemetery and wish thye had paid more attention. That in turn may lead them to get interested....some hope, but hope I guess.

regards

Arm

[IanA]

There are good policemen and there are bad policemen. There are good politicians (surely?) and there are bad politicians. There are good teachers and there are teachers who may be at the end of their tether, teachers who have realised that this may be the wrong profession for them, teachers who may not care any more.

Anyone who visits Flanders or France cannot help running into school parties and these reflect the population in general. More often, I have observed groups who are well led, attentive and respectful. Groups who, at the Menin Gate, are quiet or shed tears. I have also seen groups, or perhaps more realistically, individuals within groups, who tempt me to wade in and, under the cloak of anonymity, tell them in no uncertain terms exactly what I think of them (and their teachers).

In fairness, not all history teachers are WW1 fanatics and I think the Newfoundland Park (to which I assume you refer) is much more difficult to relate to now the electric fences are up. Nevertheless, they are not on an outing to Eurodisney and you, Mr Bailey, are quite at liberty to march up and tell the teacher in charge (under the cloak of anonymity) exactly what you think of him/ her.

Good luck to you!!

Ian (old & extremely cynical teacher)

[Gunner Bailey]

Ian

I know exactly what you mean and believe me it is tempting. However my impersonation of an RSM would probably lead these callow youths to think I was bonkers and that anyone over the age of 50 was out of touch.

Maybe next time.

Gunner Bailey

[Steven Broomfield]

There are good politicians (surely?)

Please, miss....me. miss....me.....me......

[IanA]

Come on now, it's all you can do to keep your knees in order!

[John_Hartley]

Does anyone else have this impression of the school groups?

Not me.

I think I recall you mentioning this sort of thing before about school groups. It continues not to be my experience - those that I have encountered have appeared interested and respectful.

John

[Mark Hone]

I've had my two pennorth on this before, so in the main I shall use the time honoured PMQ formula and refer the Honourable Gentleman to the answer I gave a few threads ago. Suffice it to say that school groups vary in attitude and behaviour. Some are essentially conscripted or shanghaied on the promise of a trip to Eurodisney, others come willingly and are interested. Many guides are excellent (most school groups use tour company guides, I'm becoming an exception) and try to put what the kids are seeing in context , others are not very committed and do the bare minimum. In my view the big mistake that some school groups make is to take the kids to a lot of disconnected sites, say 'Isn't this all sad and terrible? Wander round a bit with your worksheets and be back on the coach in 10 minutes' and leave it at that.

Should I form a negative view of all ex-servicemen from the handful who faithfully turn up at the Bury Remembrance Day service each year yet lurk in the doorway of the Bobby Peel pub and talk all the way through the two-minute silence?

[achiet]

Working at the Thiepval visitor Centre i see these school groups day after day. I agree with what Mark says. Schools vary in attitude and behavior and it is very important for these groups to have good guides and / or interested teachers. When they don't, the children (not all) soon loose interest, get rowdy and misbehave.

I also meet people coming to visit the battlefields who vaguely remember visiting with their schools as teenagers!!! They ask where the big hole was, where they saw the trenches.... and as adults they are ready to take their time and visit the battlefields again..... Dawn

[scragend]

As has been said above, there are some good, some bad.

Like all of us I have encountered school groups on the Western Front, and haven't seen many who have been "all that" badly behaved. Might it be that the bad ones stick in the memory more, as the ones who are well behaved aren't as conspicuous?

[stuartd]

Whilst it is quite right to site the teacher as not taking the time to address his students, I would argue that it is more worrying that so few of the students seemed to be bothered. You cannot always hold the teacher responsible for the lack of interest shown by his group!

[PBI]

I was having a Beer in Ypres on 10.11. and a Group of Ten Teenage Girls had managed to give their Teacher the Slip and were trying to get served in the Bar,when told by the Landlady that they could not purchase Alcohol they gave Her a Lot of Abuse,i felt totally embarrassed and made apologies for them,the landlady did not seem phased and said it happens now and then.On the other hand i was at Tyne Cot on the 11.11. for the service and all the Pupils from at least 3 coaches were respectfulness personified.

[Glenn]

I regularly guide coach loads of recruits from Army Training Regiments, phase 1, week 4, on battlefield tours, usually 1 or 2 per month. The first thing I say is that; to some of you this weekend will be a break from the usual routine, others it will make a lifelong lasting impression. Yes there are many recruits whom initially take the first view and enjoy the chance to get away from the training environment, however after forming up in three ranks at the Menin Gate and talking to them in their language about what happened, I generally find by the end of the tour, even the most surly and uninterested recruit has transformed and is genuinely interested.

Glenn

[6th Shropshires]

I saw several groups of school kids around and abouts the Salient of the four days I was there and most were looking at the head stones.

[healdav]

It isn´t just the teenagers and it isn´t just teachers.

Not long ago I met a group from the USA for the day - as a guest not guide.

The "guide" who regularly brings groups over spent a lot of the morning saying we would be visiting the BOYS BRUL.

When we got to the place it was the Bois Brulé !

Then he didn´t want to walk 200 metres from the bus - too far.

He didn´t speak a word of French. I had to translate all the info at the various sites. He had no background info at all.

The thing is that he is a well known guide in the USA and this tour was such a success he is already over subscribed for next year.

And I´ve only given the edited highlights. It got worse as the day went on.

[Ken Wayman]

Ian (old & extremely cynical teacher)

Ian

I too am an old and cynical history teacher - I echo what you've said. Troops are usually as good as their leaders.

I used to take street-wise fifteen year-olds from an urban comp to Ypres and they never ceased to amaze me in their reactions to the experience of visiting the old front line. Yes they were a real handful at night (and how!) but during the day the majority made me proud of them. I usually returned to school feeling exhausted but satisfied (instead of the standard just exhausted!).

I recently visited the Somme and came across several school parties - they varied from the respectful and interested to the downright embarrassing. For the most part the children's attitudes reflected their teachers' input and attitude. 'Nuff said, I think.

Regards

Ken

[Gunner Bailey]

Thanks to eveyone who has replied so far. It's clear there are a a wide spectrum of views and experiences. I like to think that most kids aren't bad, just badly led, either by parents or teachers.

If I found kids being disrespectful or just plain out of control I think I would step in and say something. It's interesting that the teachers do get some flack here. I think they probably could do more. I've seen quite a few parties of English school children in 'noisy' moods at Tommie's Cafe and at Somme sites, but should we expect modern kids to sit and eat their lunch like a load of monks? In my school days if you were told to eat in silence you could hear a pin drop. However I'm not sure that's healthy any more, nor desireable.

I would like to think that teachers leading parties to the battlefileds, cemetaries will give them a good briefing about how the soldiers died, the un-named graves, the emotions still felt by people of a certain age and respect for others who may be visiting the graves of relatives.

A couple of years ago, at the Menin gate, I was quite shocked when parties of school children clapped after the last post. I hadn't expected it. Different times, generations and standard I suppose. I don't even feel old!

Gunner Bailey

[Ken Wayman]

A couple of years ago, at the Menin gate, I was quite shocked when parties of school children clapped after the last post. I hadn't expected it. Different times, generations and standard I suppose. I don't even feel old!

Gunner Bailey

I would have been surprised as well but at least it was a positive reaction to an emotional moment.

There's hope yet!

Ken

[Mark Hone]

The last time I attended the Last Post there was applause and even cheering. I first noticed the clapping in the early 90's , it went away again and now seems to have come back. I have just booked our 2007 participation in the ceremony and I note that the organisers now send an e-mail when confirming your participation advising school groups on behaviour and asking them not to clap.

[PBI]

Morning Mark,thanks for posting your information,as this finally settles a Question raised in a previous Thread about Applause/Clapping at the Menin Gate after the Last Post.This has finally defined the code of conduct that is expected at this ceremony.Thanks again for "Putting This One To Bed "..Regards PBI.

[bkristof]

Just come to work in the museum one week....

See how some use it as a fun theme park and some as a impression and reflection of WW1

[John_Hartley]

See how some use it as a fun theme park and some as a impression and reflection of WW1

Kristof

When I visted the museum (and briefly met you), it was the re-enactment day in 2005. That was fun to watch (and to talk with people), but also had its serious side.

I also have to say that I found the museum fun as well as serious. The dug-out is great fun and I can imagine school students thinking it even more so. It's why it's such a good place and a credit to you and your colleagues. If people want entirely serious , there are other places.

John

[Terry Denham]

I take school parties over all the time and, unless you have done it for real, you cannot fully appreciate the problems of bridging both the age and the knowledge gap with today's teenager on such a trip.

I have taken kids from deprived areas of East London and wealthy private schools - even one school where the children's first language was not English. I have never had a bad experience with a group although the odd individual has benefited from the sharp side of my voice on the odd occasion!

The majority are not as 'interested' as we would like but they invariably quieten down during a trip when the enormity of it all starts to hit home. I have never yet seen the first visit to a war cemetery fail to have an appropriate effect - and when they start to realise that many of the men were not much older than themselves. Private Strudwick at Essex Farm does more for making today's youth understand the horrors better than any erudite lecture can.

I agree that the teachers can make a difference - a big difference - and I have experienced them all!

I was on the Somme with a coach of 40 kids on 10/11 and they were lively and boisterous - normal kids of 14 years etc. However, they were most respectful at all the appropriate times. At Thiepval they held their own readings, laid wreaths and had a bugler play the Last Post and Reveille (brilliantly) - and the two minute silence was perfect. They were congratulated by a party of French schoolchildren for their efforts and a French teacher said to us 'We are here again today, French and British - all together' pointing to the Anglo-French cemetery behind the memorial.

When the kids got back on the coach, they went into hyper mode again until the next stop. Kids being kids - just like we were.

I take school parties as an adjunct to my interest in WW1 and in the belief that, one day, one or two of them will replace us on this Forum. Certainly most won't - but some will.

[Gibbo]

I think that school parties need to be closely supervised & not just left to wander round on their own. In any group who aren't there entirely by choice there will be a few who're very interested, many who have some interest & others with no interest. In a well supervised school party the interest of the middle group will be brought out. In a poorly supervised one they will show little interest for fear of being deemed to be uncool by the disinterested, who will appear to be a larger proportion of the whole than they actually are in such a group.

I am fully aware that it must be very difficult to properly supervise such a party.

[Ken Wayman]

I think that school parties need to be closely supervised & not just left to wander round on their own. In any group who aren't there entirely by choice there will be a few who're very interested, many who have some interest & others with no interest. In a well supervised school party the interest of the middle group will be brought out. In a poorly supervised one they will show little interest for fear of being deemed to be uncool by the disinterested, who will appear to be a larger proportion of the whole than they actually are in such a group.

I am fully aware that it must be very difficult to properly supervise such a party.

You've hit the nail squarely on the head! I know from experience.

Ken