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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Beersheba cavalry charge 31 October 1917


Trebrys

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Mate,

I 'll have to double check my sourse also by Fred White is listed in the 2nd Camel Bn War dairy as KIA with Bn HQ, he was amoung a number that died when hit by an aircraft attack while the Camel Brigade held Sh Abbas ridge after the 2nd Gaza battle..

The men with a Company number are confirmed as ICC and with that company while the others company are unknown but I got there names from the MIC by using the field "Camel Corps" and up they came like Robert Roberts and Tom Kendrick (won a MID with ICC) had RWF and Hussars and ICC.

Men like Oliver (KIA with ICC) and Smith (WIA with ICC) are shown in a Company but not that they came from any other place but the RWF.

I am unsure what you mean if any don't fall into that area let me know and I can check against known ICC rolls. I am quiet capable of making mistakes and if I have I would very much like to confirm them from what ever sourse, your help is most welcome.

I should add that my knowage of British Regts is limited and there details came from the MIC cards or it is mentioned in the known rolls of the ICC.

Cheers

S.B

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Hi Bill,

Many thanks for that and for all your input! Very impressive!

Take care,

Iwan.

Trebrys

G'day mate

ICC = Imperial Camel Corps

Cheers

Bill

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This is Arthur on his horse.

Can the experts work anything out about him from this? Is he holding a pennant of some sort?

Arthur2.doc

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Here is another picture of him. This time wearing a shoulder belt of some sort.

Trebrys,

The second picture certainly shows him wearing an ammunition bandolier, which was pretty standard issue for all sorts of mounted troops (because they couldn't easily wear infantry style belts & ammo. pouches etc).

However, the picture is rather small - as is the first one (I can't see enough to be able to comment on it). Any chance of enlarging it?

Hwyl,

LST_164

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Hello there,

I'm really struggling to find out how to enlarge them. I have them in A4 size here and they're very good pictures, but I have been sweating for hours trying to find a way to resize them. Failing miserably though!

Do you know how I can do it? I have one more picture too of a group of RWF men with horses with my man amongst them! Sooooo frustrating, especially as I can see other threads with large pictures in them.

Cofion ,

Iwan.

Trebrys,

The second picture certainly shows him wearing an ammunition bandolier, which was pretty standard issue for all sorts of mounted troops (because they couldn't easily wear infantry style belts & ammo. pouches etc).

However, the picture is rather small - as is the first one (I can't see enough to be able to comment on it). Any chance of enlarging it?

Hwyl,

LST_164

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If you have a scanner, scan at normal resolution. Save to Adobe or picture manager. Then open and use your resize tool to size them at 90 or less. Then upload them.

Failing that, scan them as A4 and save them to Your Pictures, and send them via email to me. Click on Ozzie and it should bring up my email.

Cheers

Kim

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Kim,

Thanks for that. I really have been struggling because I'd like the experts to cast their eyes over these pictures for me. I'll do what you suggest later in about six hours or so. I have to go visit my mother now.....duty calls!!

Many thanks again!

Iwan.

If you have a scanner, scan at normal resolution. Save to Adobe or picture manager. Then open and use your resize tool to size them at 90 or less. Then upload them.

Failing that, scan them as A4 and save them to Your Pictures, and send them via email to me. Click on Ozzie and it should bring up my email.

Cheers

Kim

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Here you can see Arthur Griffith Roberts who claimed to have been a part of the Charge at Beersheba.................not meaning to lessen the heroism of our Aussie friends...........was this possible?

Fingers crossed that these will be bigger.
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The caps of some of these men show them to be members of the RWF. Arthur Griffith Roberts is one of them.

And
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Mate,

I still think he was spining a line, but no he could not have taken part in the charge.

Even if he was mounted at that time a single british soldier running around the battlefield just doesn't seam possible.

That said following the fall of Beersheba many units moved threw and around the town and went into action in the hills to the north.

Many soldiers still count this as part of the Beersheba fighting when it is more comenly known under a different name.

Mate I know of many Anzac soldiers who were not in the charge (because they served in other regts) that claim to be in the charge.

Don't get to hung up on that point.

Cheers

S.B

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Guest Bill Woerlee

Iwan

G'day mate

Here you can see Arthur Griffith Roberts who claimed to have been a part of the Charge at Beersheba.................not meaning to lessen the heroism of our Aussie friends...........was this possible?

I have to agree with Steve. It is something you will have to get over as it is just not a possibility. In the Welsh formation he was part of the dismounted Yeomanry 74th Infantry Division.They were on foot at this time and furthermore no where near the charge site.

One thing we have noticed over time are the number of claims emerging from family legends that a person had taken part in the charge. The sheer qunatum bears testimony to the old adage - victory has a thousand fathers while defeat is an orphan. I have seen testimony given by folks whose famile swore their relative was in the Beersheba charge. They have ranged from infantrymen who were on the Western Front at the time - one only needs to read the testimony of those who saw Tibby Cotter killed on that day - or they were in a unit that was never near the charge but after the publicity needed to be part of the event - one only needs to read Idriess "The Desert Column" to see this - or the person was in the correct unit but never arrived until the following year - something that happened with monotonous regularity. There is nothing like a 12th LHR man who arrived as a reinforcement in March 1918 but afterwards claimed to be in the charge. Steve and I have heard a tsunami of these claims of family legend - most of which were made up for the purposes of big noting - an honourable profession - but unfortunately taken up fact by later generations.

Sadly your man was not anywhere near the charge. If he was, he should have been arrested for either desertion from his own unit since he would have been many miles away from his unit - a death penalty offence - or arrested as a spy - something that happened to any Brit who wandered without invititation into the Australian or New Zealander lines, something that litters the war diaries of the light horse. There is no mention of his arrest in the war diaries of the participating units nor is there any mention of secondment of a Brit for the purposes of a charge - something that would have been so extraordinary that it would make the notes. There is de nada. He was not there.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Bill

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Good morning, gentlemen!

Well, talk about two emphatic noes to greet someone in the morning! But your points are taken, lads! I was just pushing it as far as I could with ifs and buts before I return to the gentleman's son with the gatherings of my search. It's a shame, but if it wasn't true, it wasn't true.

I would like someone far better qualified than me to just comment on the three pictures on the thread though, if possible, so that I could pass on the info to the son as to what they were. Thanks for your input with this thread. It's been an education.

All the best,

Trebrys.

Iwan

G'day mate

I have to agree with Steve. It is something you will have to get over as it is just not a possibility. In the Welsh formation he was part of the dismounted Yeomanry 74th Infantry Division.They were on foot at this time and furthermore no where near the charge site.

One thing we have noticed over time are the number of claims emerging from family legends that a person had taken part in the charge. The sheer qunatum bears testimony to the old adage - victory has a thousand fathers while defeat is an orphan. I have seen testimony given by folks whose famile swore their relative was in the Beersheba charge. They have ranged from infantrymen who were on the Western Front at the time - one only needs to read the testimony of those who saw Tibby Cotter killed on that day - or they were in a unit that was never near the charge but after the publicity needed to be part of the event - one only needs to read Idriess "The Desert Column" to see this - or the person was in the correct unit but never arrived until the following year - something that happened with monotonous regularity. There is nothing like a 12th LHR man who arrived as a reinforcement in March 1918 but afterwards claimed to be in the charge. Steve and I have heard a tsunami of these claims of family legend - most of which were made up for the purposes of big noting - an honourable profession - but unfortunately taken up fact by later generations.

Sadly your man was not anywhere near the charge. If he was, he should have been arrested for either desertion from his own unit since he would have been many miles away from his unit - a death penalty offence - or arrested as a spy - something that happened to any Brit who wandered without invititation into the Australian or New Zealander lines, something that litters the war diaries of the light horse. There is no mention of his arrest in the war diaries of the participating units nor is there any mention of secondment of a Brit for the purposes of a charge - something that would have been so extraordinary that it would make the notes. There is de nada. He was not there.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Bill

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Thanks, Kim!

You've been a star!!

Iwan.

Be proud of him, he was part of the Great War.
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Any comments on the make-up of Arthur and his horse would be gratefully accepted! Especially by the people who know about these things!!

Trebrys

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Iwan,

Make-up? Well, the horse certainly seems to have a lot of rouge on the face area...

seriously though, the waggon picture seems to indicate that maybe he was after all part of the 1/6th RWF's Battalion Transport details. The mounted one is a nice shot, but it's lacking something...he has no weaponry or even bandolier visible, and the well-groomed horse (this from me who just has a quiet trot on a borrowed gee-gee from time to time, so no expert) equally has what looks like a very slimmed-down set of harness rather than the equipment carried by cavalry on campaign. Of course, the shot is posed, taken during a quiet time somewhere, so one can't expect to see them all sweaty & overloaded with kit.

I'm not sure what's in his hand - maybe a riding crop? The discolouration on the pic makes it difficult to be sure. I would bet that his putties are wound infantry-style; I can't see spurs, and I'm not sure if he's wearing proper mounted breeches - maybe he is.

So on the whole, maybe I'd go for his being a driver in the unit transport rather than a mounted infantry type. If there are any real cavalry specialists out there, maybe you can get confirmation on these points.

LST_164

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As ever, Clive, diolch o galon!

Iwan

Iwan,

Make-up? Well, the horse certainly seems to have a lot of rouge on the face area...

seriously though, the waggon picture seems to indicate that maybe he was after all part of the 1/6th RWF's Battalion Transport details. The mounted one is a nice shot, but it's lacking something...he has no weaponry or even bandolier visible, and the well-groomed horse (this from me who just has a quiet trot on a borrowed gee-gee from time to time, so no expert) equally has what looks like a very slimmed-down set of harness rather than the equipment carried by cavalry on campaign. Of course, the shot is posed, taken during a quiet time somewhere, so one can't expect to see them all sweaty & overloaded with kit.

I'm not sure what's in his hand - maybe a riding crop? The discolouration on the pic makes it difficult to be sure. I would bet that his putties are wound infantry-style; I can't see spurs, and I'm not sure if he's wearing proper mounted breeches - maybe he is.

So on the whole, maybe I'd go for his being a driver in the unit transport rather than a mounted infantry type. If there are any real cavalry specialists out there, maybe you can get confirmation on these points.

LST_164

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Mate,

Looking a the photo's I am inclined to agree with LST also.

He is posibly in a Transport unit and Bn Transport most likely.

The GS wagon is a give away and lack of leggings and other mounted items is strange not being worn by the soldier.

The service cap was not worn on operations in Eygpt instead a Pith helmet was worn. But a Driver Transport did wear a five pouch artillery bandiler.

I have a feeling that the above photo may have been taken in the UK and not in egypt? As the horse appears too well groomed for a horse used on active service.

He appears to be a young man at the time and off on a grand advanture.

Mate it was never my idea to discredit this man only to point out the faults in his story.

S.B

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Many thanks, Steve,

Don't worry at all about your input - it truly was appreciated - and I think the son was aware of the strong possibility of the father's romanticising - so it was very important to get Bill's, as well as your knowledge to set things in the right direction. And as you mentioned before, what a wonderful event to try to latch onto!

I truly am grateful for all your help and I'm sure others have enjoyed it too by the amount of hits and posts on this particular thread.

Best wishes,

Iwan.

Mate,

Looking a the photo's I am inclined to agree with LST also.

He is posibly in a Transport unit and Bn Transport most likely.

The GS wagon is a give away and lack of leggings and other mounted items is strange not being worn by the soldier.

The service cap was not worn on operations in Eygpt instead a Pith helmet was worn. But a Driver Transport did wear a five pouch artillery bandiler.

I have a feeling that the above photo may have been taken in the UK and not in egypt? As the horse appears too well groomed for a horse used on active service.

He appears to be a young man at the time and off on a grand advanture.

Mate it was never my idea to discredit this man only to point out the faults in his story.

S.B

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  • 2 weeks later...

I better bring this thread officially to a close by thanking all who chipped in with their bit and their pearls of wisdom! Many thanks!

Trebrys.

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