Trebrys Posted 11 November , 2006 Share Posted 11 November , 2006 Could anyone out there tell me anything at all about a cavalry charge at Beersheba on October 31 1917? I know nothing at all about the event, but I'd like to know what happened there. An Arthur Griffth Roberts (265140) of the RWF and a native of Porthmadog, Wales is supposed to have taken part. Is this a possibility and if so is there any way in which this could be confirmed? Trebrys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Arnold Posted 11 November , 2006 Share Posted 11 November , 2006 Hiya, Try this for information on the charge. Hopefully somebody else can give you more information. Ali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebrys Posted 11 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 11 November , 2006 Great! Thanks, Ali! Hiya, Try this for information on the charge. Hopefully somebody else can give you more information. Ali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 11 November , 2006 Share Posted 11 November , 2006 Mate, I am unsure what you are asking? Are you saying that a British/Welsh Infantry soldier took part in a Mounted charge by Australian Light Horse? Can I say it sounds like a family story which on closer examination almost always proves to be false. But can I say what Regt was Arthur in? Mate the British Infantry cleared one flank of the Beersheba defences before the charge and their victory over the Turks gave the LH a chance to launch that charge. The British foot soldiers maynot have taken direct part in the mounted charge but their service before it and after lead to a great victory. Cheers S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebrys Posted 12 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2006 Hi there, Many thanks for that! I've no doubt that you are right. I've been reading up on it tonight and I'd come to that conclusion quite rapidly! I was asking the question on behalf of an acquaintance and the alarm bells were quite quickly ringing loudly! I'll chase after the man in the morning and see what exactly his ancestor claimed. Thanks again for your response and I must say that what the LH did on that day was pretty amazing! All the best, Trebrys. Mate, I am unsure what you are asking? Are you saying that a British/Welsh Infantry soldier took part in a Mounted charge by Australian Light Horse? Can I say it sounds like a family story which on closer examination almost always proves to be false. But can I say what Regt was Arthur in? Mate the British Infantry cleared one flank of the Beersheba defences before the charge and their victory over the Turks gave the LH a chance to launch that charge. The British foot soldiers maynot have taken direct part in the mounted charge but their service before it and after lead to a great victory. Cheers S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie Posted 12 November , 2006 Share Posted 12 November , 2006 I thought I put this up before for you, I must be losing it quicker than I thought. Try this for the Charge. http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/histories/8/chapters/23.pdf Cheers Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 12 November , 2006 Share Posted 12 November , 2006 Trebrys Just a quick question mate - was he born in 1896 at Anglesey Llanedwen and was 19 when he enlisted in 1914 in the 1/6th (Caernarvonshire and Anglesey) Battalion, 158th Brigade, 53rd Division? You man looks like he was discharged and then re-enlisted later on in the war. There are two numbers for him: Royal Welsh Fusiliers 950 Private Royal Welsh Fusiliers 265140 Private If this is the same fellow, then we will know very quickly the truth of his claim. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebrys Posted 12 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2006 Dear Bill, Many thanks for your time. My source is a little bit flummoxed by these two sets of numbers. Apparently, he has in his possession an original card dated from February 13 1913 that has the numbers 265140 on it stating that Arthur Griffith Roberts, believed to be a native of Porthmadog and not Llanedwen, enlisted on that date. Roberts's son has always thought his father was from the former! The plot thickens! He has in his possession photographs of his father on horseback in the Middle East - he was a good horseman apparently - as well as a cavalry sword hanging on the wall of his livingroom! Apparently he was drafted in to participate in the charge because of his skills!?!? Is this plausible?? The mystery deepens! Thanks to all who've chipped in with comments - are there any more which might shed new light or suggestions on this? Trebrys. Trebrys Just a quick question mate - was he born in 1896 at Anglesey Llanedwen and was 19 when he enlisted in 1914 in the 1/6th (Caernarvonshire and Anglesey) Battalion, 158th Brigade, 53rd Division? You man looks like he was discharged and then re-enlisted later on in the war. There are two numbers for him: Royal Welsh Fusiliers 950 Private Royal Welsh Fusiliers 265140 Private If this is the same fellow, then we will know very quickly the truth of his claim. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebrys Posted 12 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2006 Bill. It now seems that his numbers are as you said i.e. that he had two sets. My source has now told me that the first set of numbers (265140) were ones added later and not the ones given in 1913! Sorry! He was not born in Anglesey though as the parents do not tally with the ones from the island! I think I may have found him as Arthur W. Roberts in Llanberis, not Arthur G. as he was in later life! Typical! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie Posted 12 November , 2006 Share Posted 12 November , 2006 The sword may be misleading. The 4th and 12th Light Horse charged armed only with bayonets and rifles. I have not read one account that has an English guy riding with them. And I have read every thing I could get my hands on about the Charge.( but not quite everything there is.) He may well have been present, with another company/ regiment, but doubt strongly that he would have been a charger unless he had joined the Light Horse prior to the day. Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebrys Posted 12 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2006 Added information: he is not the one from Llanberis either! Trebrys. Bill. It now seems that his numbers are as you said i.e. that he had two sets. My source has now told me that the first set of numbers (265140) were ones added later and not the ones given in 1913! Sorry! He was not born in Anglesey though as the parents do not tally with the ones from the island! I think I may have found him as Arthur W. Roberts in Llanberis, not Arthur G. as he was in later life! Typical! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebrys Posted 12 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2006 Hi Kim, I'm beginning to suspect you are right about the sword - it may well have been a souvenir picked up on the floor after the battle, perhaps? And the photos could well have been from similar "touristy" sources? But please.......he was Welsh, not English!! We folk don't like that mistake!! Ha ha!! Trebrys. The sword may be misleading. The 4th and 12th Light Horse charged armed only with bayonets and rifles. I have not read one account that has an English guy riding with them. And I have read every thing I could get my hands on about the Charge.( but not quite everything there is.) He may well have been present, with another company/ regiment, but doubt strongly that he would have been a charger unless he had joined the Light Horse prior to the day. Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 13 November , 2006 Share Posted 13 November , 2006 Mate, The reason I asked what unit as two companies of the Camel Corps were drawn from the British Divions in Egypt and it happens the Royal Welsh Fusiliers was one on them. The two numbers I am told by a British mate, was the one issued on joining the the Army and his regt and the other when numbers were reissued later in the war or for their movement to another unit in the Army. Now there are some 31 soldiers from the RWF in the Camel Corps, but none by your relations name? But in the records I have there is shown some transfer to a Cavalry unit for the change of numbers while there is none for Arthur. The only Cavalry with swords pre Beersheba were British Yeoamnry Regts, not LH, and these Yeoamnry Regts under went a number of Famous charges post Beersheba to most well known was at Huj. Post Beersheba there was an issue of swords to some of the LH. Now Arthur was not there either but may have picked the sword up at any time and added a story to the sword. Its not the first time Ive heard these types of story's so don't be to hard on the old bloke. Cheers S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hywyn Posted 13 November , 2006 Share Posted 13 November , 2006 Steve I'm sure I am not the only RWF enthusiast who would like to see that list of RWF men in the Camel Corps.It may be possible to cross check them against a 1915 list which contains addresses etc. Is it possible for you to post the info? The 1st 6th RWF suffered heavily at Bersheeba on the 6th Nov 17. Hywyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 13 November , 2006 Share Posted 13 November , 2006 Mate, No worries, Here is my listing of Welsh Fusiliers who passed threw the ICC, White Frederick William 2370 L/Cpl BHQ Ex 1/1 Montgomery Yeo (355257) and 25Bn Royal Welsh Fusiliers buried Gaza War Cemetery Vickers Alfred 50378 Cpl Ex Denbigh Yeo (697) and Royal Welsh Fusiliers (345185) to Royal Engineers (WR/291088) Gunter George F. 50390 Pte Ex Denbigh Yeo (552) and Hussars later Royal Welsh Fusiliers (345119) Hughes Albert H. 50392 Pte Ex Denbigh Yeo (474) and Hussars later Royal Welsh Fusiliers (4184685) Jones Hugh 50396 Pte Ex Denbigh Yeo (433) and Hussars later Royal Welsh Fusiliers (345044) Jones John 50398 Pte Ex Denbigh Yeo (586) and Royal Welsh Fusiliers (340146) later Royal Engineers (WR/195555) Pearson John A 50405 Pte Ex Denbigh Yeo (1051) and Royal Welsh Fusiliers (T345260) to Royal Engineers (456827) Richardson Griffith 50407 Pte Ex Denbigh Yeo (776) and Welsh Fusiliers (345205) to Royal Engineers (WR/193272) Williams John 50451 Pte Ex Montgomery Yeo (2396) to Royal Welsh Fusiliers (355263) to RASC (M/417764) Markham John W 50933 Pte Ex Welsh Fusiliers (242690) and Hussars West James B 50935 Pte Ex Welsh Horse (527) to Royal Welsh Fusiliers (35578) and Dragoons (D/24426) Wilcox Frank H 51055 Pte Ex Royal Welsh Fusiliers (38948) and Hussars Underwood George 51056 Sgt Ex Sgt Welsh Fusiliers (1124) and Hussars Williams David E 51058 Pte Ex Royal Welsh Fusiliers (967) to Hertford Yeo (106480) Owen Richard 51063 Pte Ex Welsh Fusiliers (241501) and Hussars Martin Thomas 51064 Pte Ex Welsh Fusiliers (947) and Hussars rtn Welsh Fusiliers (41827) Kendrick Thomas P 51066 SQMS Ex Wo2 Welsh Fusiliers (1044) and Hussars Jones David 51195 Pte Ex Royal Welsh Fusiliers (3275) and Hussars Williams Robert T 51200 Pte Ex Royal Welsh Fusiliers (1597) and Hussars Jones Edward E. 51202 Pte 7Co Ex Royal Welsh Fusiliers (2127) to Hussars Jones William R. 51231 Pte 7Co Ex Royal Welsh Fusiliers (1218) and Hussars Roberts Robert 51243 Pte Ex Royal Welsh Fusiliers (3190) and Hussars Jones Evan J. 51244 Pte 7Co Ex Royal Welsh Fusiliers (500) and Hussars Thomas Edward E 51245 Pte Ex Royal Welsh Fusiliers (2776) and Hussars Cheesman Harold 51351 L/Cpl Ex Welsh Horse Yeo (209) and Royal Welsh Fusiliers (355599) to RASC (ET/48810) Tunstall John 51357 Cpl Ex Royal Welsh Fusiliers (25017) and Hussars Oliver John E 203639 Pte 10Co Ex 24 Royal Welsh Fusiliers Smith J 345304 Pte 6Co Ex 24 Royal Welsh Fusiliers Burton Sidney Howard 2/Lt to Capt Ex Cpl 1 Denbigh Yeo (378) to 24 Royal Welsh Fusiliers (345022) to 5 Res Cav Regt Fairman Sydney Maurice 2/Lt Ex Lt Royal Welsh Fusiliers Gardner Neville Walmsley LtCol CO 2Bn 3-17 to 1-18 rtn 5-18 to 11-18 Ex Maj 2 Royal Fusiliers to 26Bn Royal Welsh Fusiliers Cheers S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hywyn Posted 13 November , 2006 Share Posted 13 November , 2006 Thanks Steve I'll have a study of it later on this evenings. Hywyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie Posted 13 November , 2006 Share Posted 13 November , 2006 Sorry, WELSH. Must learn to put British instead of English, or even better, the right one. Cheers Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie Posted 13 November , 2006 Share Posted 13 November , 2006 Info just to hand, The 53rd Division was to attack the Kauwukah system of trenches north of Beersheba. Two Battalions of the 53rd Division in conjunction with the Imperial Camel Corps advanced North of Beersheba in the neighbourhood of El Buggar, occupying the line north of the town on the 1st November, from Towal Abu Jerwal to Kh. el Muweileh. Can't establish which particular Battalions these were though. From what I can see the two Battalions of the 158th Infantry Brigade were the 1/5 & 1/6th Battalions, Royal Welsh Fusiliers. The 159th had the 1/4 & 1/5th RWF, the 160th the 1/7th RWF. Between 1330 and 1900 hours, 31st Oct, one Brigade of the 53rd Division threatened the Turkish positions North of Wadi Saba from the West, but I cannot establish which Brigade this was. All this does put Arthur Roberts at Beersheba if he was still with the 1/6th Royal Welsh Fusiliers, but Steve Becker may be on the right track with possible transfer to one of the Yeomanry Regiments. The 7th Mounted Brigade advanced on the Turkish defences at Ras Ghannam and reached Beersheba at about 1830 hours. The sword may have some merit if he was posted to a Yeomanry Regiment of the 7th Mounted Brigade. (Above provided by Jeff Pickerd) Cheers Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebrys Posted 13 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2006 Thank you ALL for this amazing attention you've given! I'm very impressed! I'm trying to get a copy of the photos asap because this will enable the thread to become more concrete in its assumptions. I don't think I've made the claim that he rode with the LH directly, but possibly my ignorance of the Charge made it appear to be so. One story that I have been able to verify is that he had Christmas dinner in 1917 atop the Mount of Olives! The gentleman in question was not a relative of mine, but I'm chasing up this story on behalf of his son who lives in Porthmadog, North Wales. I look forward to hearing more and many thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpoole1 Posted 13 November , 2006 Share Posted 13 November , 2006 One story that I have been able to verify is that he had Christmas dinner in 1917 atop the Mount of Olives! I've done that climb myself. The sunrise is amazing. As a former Royal Welchmen, knowing these guys went before me, makes it even more special. Many Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebrys Posted 13 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2006 He he! Thanks! Sorry, WELSH. Must learn to put British instead of English, or even better, the right one. Cheers Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 13 November , 2006 Share Posted 13 November , 2006 Yeah Kim, you don't want them to Welch on you. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 14 November , 2006 Share Posted 14 November , 2006 Steve, Was intrigued by the list of Welshmen in the Imperial Camel Corps: what's the source for this info? I randomly tried out several of them against the National Archives medal cards, & found one had no mention of the ICC at all (F.W.White, the casualty killed in Apl. 1917 - came from Chirbury on the Shropshire side of the Welsh Border, but born Liverpool). The other two did - WO2 T.P.Kendrick had the same regt. number in both the ICC and Corps of Hussars, which suggests that like many of the others in the list he was formally transferred from RWF into the Hussars (nominally) for service with the Camels. But Harold Cheesman's card, though he had an ICC number, makes no mention of Hussars - despite which he clocked up an impressive FIVE changes of regt. &/or number (if you count two number changes within the ASC)!! Journeyman, Men of the RWF indeed formed part of the force which held Jerusalem against Turkish efforts at recapture over Xmas 1917 - with losses, one might add, who (along with others from the Principality) are buried in the War Cemetery on that same Mount of Olives. Never been there, but it sounds quite emotive (but then, I'm ex-RWF too). Ozzie, The 53rd (Welsh) Div Infantry elements at the time of Beersheba comprised the : 158th Brigade - 1/5th, 1/6th, and 1/7th RWF plus 1/1 Herefordshire Regt. (TF). The 1/4th RWF had been detached in 1914 and posted to France as a Pioneer Battn. 159th Brigade - 1/4th and 1/7th Cheshire Regt., plus 1/4th and 1/5th Welsh Regt 160th Brigade - 2/4th Queen's (R.West Surrey), 1/4th Royal Sussex, 2/4th Queen's Own (Ryl. West Kent); 2/10th Middlesex. It was two scouts of the last battn. who apparently "captured" Jerusalem - there's a well-known photo of them looking suspiciously at the camera while the Mayor tries to give them the keys to the Holy City! trebrys, Is the sword on your friend's wall the proper 1908 British Cavalry pattern? Has large steel basket-type guard around a slightly bent hilt, and long straight thrusting blade. If not, it might be a Turkish or some other souvenir? Cheers, LST_164 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebrys Posted 14 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 14 November , 2006 Or going Dutch on you! Yeah Kim, you don't want them to Welch on you. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 14 November , 2006 Share Posted 14 November , 2006 You'll pay for your share ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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