o j kirby Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 Hello!! Many of you may be aware of a debate about the wearing of white poppies for peace instead of the Flanders Red poppy. The issue was debated on the BBC programme question time last night. I think that it is wrong that some other organisation wants to use the period of national remembrance to seek its own agenda when the proceeds of the red poppy goes to assist our ex-service men and women. The white poppy is a symbol of the opium trade as far as I am concerned, and perhaps too close to the income of the Taleban for my liking. I wear a symbol of life, sacrifice and regeneration...not a symbol of death and terror. What do you think? Owain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteWolf Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 It's WRONG Enough said Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 This subject is already being discussed in another thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...=62945&st=0 When you read about the origins of the white poppy you may want to reconsider your insulting "opium trade" and "taliban" references. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spike10764 Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 Red poppies white poppies, who cares as long as they buy them, wear them, and in some form........ remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteWolf Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 This subject is already being discussed in another thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...=62945&st=0 When you read about the origins of the white poppy you may want to reconsider your insulting "opium trade" and "taliban" references. Andy andy Can't get teh link to work Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 Sorry Andy. The thread is in the Skindles section which can only be accessed when you have made more than 300 posts. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 This is taken from the PPU website and describes the origins of the white poppy. "The idea of an alternative poppy dates back to 1926, just a few years after the red poppy came to be used in Britain. A member of the No More War Movement suggested that the British Legion should be asked to imprint 'No More War' in the centre of the red poppies and failing this pacifists should make their own flowers. In 1933 the Co-operative Women's Guild produced the first white poppies to be worn on Armistice Day (later called Remembrance Day). The Guild stressed that the white poppy was not intended as an insult to those who died in the First World War - a war in which many of the women lost husbands, brothers, sons and lovers. The following year the Peace Pledge Union joined the CWG in the distribution of the poppies and later took over their annual promotion." Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mruk Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 Hello Owain, This is a new an interesting take on the white poppy, and one which I assume has much to do with the current situation in the middle east, but could you perhaps explain please how widespread this belief is? It's something that I've not heard of, and gives a whole new meaning to what the white poppy represents. Cheers, Dave Andy White, I'm not sure if you need to achieve a higher 'rank' before you can access certain sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteWolf Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 Thanks Andy for the explanation of the origins of the white poppy. I understand where they were coming from after loosing their loved ones. But I still think the white poppy is wrong, sorry. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 Hello!! Many of you may be aware of a debate about the wearing of white poppies for peace instead of the Flanders Red poppy. The issue was debated on the BBC programme question time last night. I think that it is wrong that some other organisation wants to use the period of national remembrance to seek its own agenda when the proceeds of the red poppy goes to assist our ex-service men and women. The white poppy is a symbol of the opium trade as far as I am concerned, and perhaps too close to the income of the Taleban for my liking. I wear a symbol of life, sacrifice and regeneration...not a symbol of death and terror. What do you think? Owain. Firstly, it is a complete "cop out" that the government evades its responsibility to disabled veterans and expects the public to assist ex-forces people. Let the people that sent soldiers off to fight pay for the results of their actions. Secondly, I am happy to buy red poppies, and have done so all of my life. However, let the money I give pay for "extras" and not essentials - see point one. Also, isn't the Poppy Fund working to its own agenda? Thirdly, who are you to dictate what should or should not be worn by other people at this "time of national remembrance" and what is this designated "time of national remembrance" about anyway? Sod them the rest of the year? It looks that way to me, and has done since 1918. The White Poppy is not now and never has been a symbol of the opium trade. It is a symbol of peace. Has been since it was first thought up. This was not last Tuesday by the way, even if you have only just heard about it. If I want to buy a White Poppy I shall, and I shall defend the right of anyone who decides to wear one. Far be it from me to speak up in favour of the former regime in Afghanistan. However, I think you will find that one thing they did was to curb the trade in opium. This trade is on the rise again since the country was liberated. In conclusion, re-read "In Flanders Fields". There is no mention of the colour of the poppies in that poem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wayman Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 My principal gripe is with the Christian organisation (I failed to catch its name) that was the subject recently of a Radio Four article/interview. The person interviewed cited the red poppy as 'failing to sufficiently reflect redemption'. I was unaware that either colour poppy was ever intended to reflect redemption. Perhaps such people should remember who the poppies (of whatever colour) are intended to help and respect instead of indulging their own agenda. Somewhat jaw-dropped Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wayman Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 This is taken from the PPU website and describes the origins of the white poppy. "The idea of an alternative poppy dates back to 1926, just a few years after the red poppy came to be used in Britain. A member of the No More War Movement suggested that the British Legion should be asked to imprint 'No More War' in the centre of the red poppies and failing this pacifists should make their own flowers. In 1933 the Co-operative Women's Guild produced the first white poppies to be worn on Armistice Day (later called Remembrance Day). The Guild stressed that the white poppy was not intended as an insult to those who died in the First World War - a war in which many of the women lost husbands, brothers, sons and lovers. The following year the Peace Pledge Union joined the CWG in the distribution of the poppies and later took over their annual promotion." Andy I fully concur with any sentiment that is in favour of 'no more war' - no-one in their right mind 'wants' war. But I do wonder what line the Women's Guild would have recommended taking with Herr Hitler! My Dad might then have spent his youth playing football and cricket instead of manning the gun-line at El Alamein and making the long trek from Arromanches to Germany. Ideals are wonderful aspirations - life is unfortunately more about pragmatism. Wandered off thread a bit, I think! Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 But I still think the white poppy is wrong, sorry. Whilst not wanting to labour the point I must say that I fail to see how a symbol developed by the wives, mothers, sisters or daughters of the men who died in WW1 can in any way be seen as wrong. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 Ideals are wonderful aspirations - life is unfortunately more about pragmatism. Wandered off thread a bit, I think! Ken Ken Pacifism is a complex set of beliefs and does not necessarily adhere to absolutes as you suggest. My grandfather was a consequential pacifist (as opposed to a deontological pacifist), as am I, and he had no real problems in volunteering to fight the Nazi menace, in fact he saw it as his political duty to do so. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 I wear a red poppy. I remember. I'm not a pacifist because I do believe that genuine evil and aggression is worth fighting. If someone wears a white poppy, at least they are making a statement. They are remembering the cost of war. It's the multitude who don't bother either way who (slighlty) annoy me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Miller Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 I wear a red poppy. I remember. I'm not a pacifist because I do believe that genuine evil and aggression is worth fighting. Thanks Des; I've been reading this and connected threads and it's been really interesting. It's given me a lot of disjointed thoughts which I didn't think I could write down. But you, in your quote above take the words out of my mouth. I have now learnt the origin of white poppies and can appreciate them too. However, I feel the enemies are public ignorance and the press. Both will lead to and propigate a feeling of conflict of tension between the two symbols. Yes, everyone should be able to wear whatever they want, but sometimes a bit of conciliatory thought can help. I've never seen a white poppy, but if I had, I would have felt happier if someone wearing one was also wearing a red one. Then you would have an outgoing statement of peace for the future, but respect for those that have died trying to provide peace in times past and present. Unfair though it may be, a white poppy on it's own appears to be dismissive of the themes that a red one stands for. That's the part of public ignorance, which included me an hour ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyspiller Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 Des/Jon Great posts guys - could not have summed up this thread better. Kind Rgds Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zooloo Posted 11 November , 2006 Share Posted 11 November , 2006 My preference would be for a white poppy as it has a stronger representstion for me than the red. It has more meaning, personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max (UK) Posted 11 November , 2006 Share Posted 11 November , 2006 re-read "In Flanders Fields". There is no mention of the colour of the poppies in that poem. Sure, but.......erm.........they were red poppies, weren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 11 November , 2006 Share Posted 11 November , 2006 Sure, but.......erm.........they were red poppies, weren't they? They probably were Max, most of them are. Those I have picked on the Ypres Salient are. My point is that the writer of the poem, that inspired the wearing of the poppy, didn't say. It would be wrong to assume that the originators of the white poppy "had it in for" ex-soldiers or the red poppy. In fact, they asked the Royal British Legion to make their poppies. It was the militarists that rejected the widows and mothers, not the other way around. My own view is that the establishment/militarists are attacking the white poppy more strongly now because it could become a focus of discontent with involvement in foreign adventures. For the first time I have heard that the white poppy is being sold in Canada this year, being imported from England. Of course, ex-service types are complaining but I can think of at least 42 reasons that it is being sold. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/08112006/3/cana...n-veterans.html http://live.canoe.ca/Words/News/YourSay/20...27/2145508.html My own view is that we should at all times support the soldier, but oppose the wars that get them killed. Take a look at this video, and translate the double figures of dead soldiers listed at the end into hundreds of thousands and then millions. You will then understand why the women between the wars thought up the idea of a Peace Poppy. http://media.putfile.com/A-Tribute-For-Our-Fallen-Soldiers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wayman Posted 11 November , 2006 Share Posted 11 November , 2006 Ken Pacifism is a complex set of beliefs and does not necessarily adhere to absolutes as you suggest. My grandfather was a consequential pacifist (as opposed to a deontological pacifist), as am I, and he had no real problems in volunteering to fight the Nazi menace, in fact he saw it as his political duty to do so. Andy Now I'm really confused, Andy! Would you exlain a bit more - it's important that I understand. Regards Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Take on me Posted 11 November , 2006 Share Posted 11 November , 2006 Now I'm really confused, Andy! Would you exlain a bit more - it's important that I understand. Regards Ken These are philosophical terms. Deontological means a concentration upon the means. Thus a deontological pacifist disagrees with the means used to wage war, thus they oppose all war on principle because it involves the taking of human life and the bereavement of others. Consequentialist or teleological means a concentration upon the ends, the ends of an action outweigh the means used to acheive it (in reverse to a deontological theory). A teleological pacifist usually disagrees with the ends of war, such as the aquisition of empire or war for economic reasons. However a pacifist of this sort might agree with war when the ends are deemed to be worthy, in this instance the defeat of Hitler and the Nazis. I hope that jumbled mess makes some sense. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Newman Posted 11 November , 2006 Share Posted 11 November , 2006 I heard a guy on the radio outlining that red poppies were basically discriminatry, as they only remembered 'our' dead and we should be remembering those of all wars and sides. Each country is entitled to remember their own dead however they see fit but I would love to have asked this chap if SS casualties in WW2 should also be remembered, or are certain forms of discrimintaion from the interlectually elite OK? The point not to forget in my opinion is that we have the freedom today to make a choice and whilst I wouldn't see it as 'wrong' wearing a white poppy I don't quite see the need. Wearing red does not make me a war monger celebrating in death with no wishes for peace. Also where does the money go for white poppies? We all know about the RBL fund and this hasn't changed over the years, however its clearly not widows, wives and mothers of the great war now trying to make a statement and raise funds for their organisation, so who has taken over this symbol? At the end of the day remembrance is a very personal thing and the surely most important thing, is to do it. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wayman Posted 12 November , 2006 Share Posted 12 November , 2006 I hope that jumbled mess makes some sense. Jon Many thanks Jon - it makes perfect sense to me. Consequential pacifism thus fits much of what I believe. You've really set the grey matter churning! Regards Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wayman Posted 12 November , 2006 Share Posted 12 November , 2006 At the end of the day remembrance is a very personal thing and the surely most important thing, is to do it. Steve I think that says it all Steve. Regards Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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