Moslem Crescent From Poppy Fund

[BeppoSapone]

Along with the "Rememberance Crosses" being sold for 11th November I noticed a Moslem Crescent, which I purchased.

This item is just the plastic "wood", without an attached poppy. Is this correct or did I get one that "escaped" from the factory without being completed?

[John_Hartley]

I think it might be "as is". I havnt seen a Crescent - but have seen a Star of David version (without poppy) at the National Arboreteum. RBL just need to produce a completely non-religious one and I'll get me wallet out.

John

[andyspiller]

John

Mmm - interesting. What would you suggest a a totally non-religious version?

BTW the only thought that I had would be a poppy-shaped one.

Kind Rgds

Andy

PS I am aware of your views and this is perfectly serious question

[tintin1689]

Traditional circlet for wreathes is non-religious (or at least not specific to any one religion) - if you want to be specifically non-religious you can have an appropriate badge put in the middle

[John_Hartley]

Andy

I appreciated it was a serious question, mate.

In terms of this sort of thing, it's a bit of a problem for us athiests. By the nature of our convictions, we're a pretty diverse and unorganised group (although I used to be a member of the British Humanist Association - and would probably still turn to them to conduct, say , a funeral service). But it means we don't have a ready made or easily recognisable symbol.

Your idea of a poppy shaped one is a good one, though.

John

[andyspiller]

John

As a non-committed Methodist (mine's a pint), all they would need to do is make a thicker stalk maybe?

I would feel just as happy doing this as using a 'religious symbol'.

In fact, I have done this with great pride in the past with Poppies from the CWGC.

Rgds

Andy

[andyspiller]

John

One of my proudest moments.

Rgds

Andy

[John_Hartley]

Andy

I know what you mean. I have two great uncles "over there" and have written about both of them for Tom Morgan's Hellfire Corner site. I've taken one of the RBL poppy wreaths when I've been to visit (and, also, to the Liverpool & Manchester Pals monument at Montauban). I found all three first visits very moving.

But I also visit graves of some of then men I research and I would like to leave some token with their graves. That's why I'd like to see the RBL produce something extra. I'm certainly not suggesting that a secular thingy should replace the crosses/crescents/stars - far from it. I think people of faith may need (and certainly wish) to leave the symbols of that faith.

By the way, may I ask what is the inscription on Herbert's grave?

John

[Malcolm]

Ah now if you had been of a religious personage you would have recognised the Song of Solomon.

Song of Solomon 4:6 Until the day breaks and the shadows flee, I will go to the mountain of myrrh and to the hill of frankincense.

taken as ' Until the dawn breaks and the shadows flee away' and used widely on gravestones.

I follow your argument though and a circular wreath is secular or use a Laurel wreath as the War Memorials Trust do.

Aye

Malcolm

[John_Hartley]

Malcolm

Ta for that.

I don't have a problem with the wreath - poppy or otherwise.

It's the little "plastic wood" cross/crescent/star thingies that the RBL sell that I would like to see added to. A small supply of something secular (and cheap) would be great to take on battlefield trips.

BTW, does anyone know if the wreath, etc can be bought on-line?

John

[andyspiller]

John/Malcolm

Interesting, but incorrect. Something that I cannot quite understand because the inscription says FLY not FLEE.

Seems to be (in its original form - of course Malc is quite correct) a semi-common inscription. My g-grandfather's in-memorium card (from the other side of the family) uses the same quote. Why people used this one is something that I have not been able to get to the bottom of, except that in Lyn Macdonald's 1915, she quotes a letter from Lord Sydenham who uses the quote in

"If only real organised methods are forthcoming in 1916, we and our true Allies, in growing strength, may fight on with calm confidence 'until the day break and the shadows flee away' in the light of victory and peace."

Any enlightenment would be appreciated

Kind Rgds

Andy

[Malcolm]

John,

I have just finished doing a stand to take the Poppy Wreath on Sunday at the local Church and the stand is covered with a cloth and decorated with a poppy for each man mentioned.

Why don't you get a collection of Poppies and make up your own small remembrance circlet of Poppies on a card/plastic backing.

Aye

Malcolm

[andyspiller]

Pals

If you want to see a piccy of Bert, then see our website (below).

Kind Rgds

Andy

[tintin1689]

I think for the things to stick in the ground (markers?) the RBL should produce one shaped like the gravestone, but with a point at the bottom to push into the earth:-

1) It is not distinctive of any particular religion (like the stones themselves)

2) It gives the mourner plenty of space to write on

3) It is sort of fitting

4) It would be quite sturdy

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

This item is just the plastic "wood", without an attached poppy. Is this correct or did I get one that "escaped" from the factory without being completed?

The sans Poppy Muslim Crescent is correct,as nothing is allowed to adorn the Crescent.

Star of David emblems are usually fitted with a Poppy[usually in wood again,after a brief sojurn with Plastic.

Crosses,representing the original Crosses that marked Graves,in Wood{& upto recently for a short period Plastic} have a Poppy or if requested any one of a number of Service & Civil emblems,

The cross,in all fairness, represents those who paid the price,not the religious leanings,or not, of the placee.

@ the end of the day,or should I say the going down of the Sun,these emblems are to raise funds for the RBL efforts in maintaining aid to veterans of all Conflicts & Skirmishes,since WW1,ended,a period which has seen only one year since the end of WW2 when a British Serviceman,or Woman,was not killed in the Service of the Country.to maintain the balance of costs & to keep the production of these items & all Wreaths,Poppies,etc,sold for Rememberance{save the Commonwealth Office Wreath,which is made @ Kew Gardens}as straightforward & simple as possible as they are all made in a small Factory,[about the size of a small supermarket] @ Richmond.by a small team of severley disabled ex Service & Civilian workers,so new "ideas" are guided by manufacture rather than public "want",they are after all a "Flag" like any other charity flag,a fundraiser.

[John_Hartley]

HB

Understood - but I reckon the RBL is missing out on an opportunity here. The 2001 Census showed that just over 71.6% of the population declared themsleves to be Christian, 2.7% Muslim, 0.5% Jewish and 2.4% other religions.

The remaining 22.8% stated they either had no religion or did not answer the question. There will be a considerable number of those who, like me, would not buy a religious symbol of remembrance but would buy a secular one.

Who would I write to at the RBL to put this suggestion forward?

John

[andyspiller]

Harters

With you on this one.

Kind Rgds

Andy

[BeppoSapone]

HB

Understood - but I reckon the RBL is missing out on an opportunity here. The 2001 Census showed that just over 71.6% of the population declared themsleves to be Christian, 2.7% Muslim, 0.5% Jewish and 2.4% other religions.

John

Seems as if Wicca must be one of the other 2.4% religions. It is the case in America anyway.

Here is an interesting article about how they are not allowed to have their religious symbol on the graves of their Iraq war dead.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6146288.stm

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

Who would I write to at the RBL to put this suggestion forward?

John

John,

A letter to the

Appeals Director,

The Royal British Legion Poppy Appeal;

RBL Village;

Aylesford ;

Kent;

ME20 7NX.

may help,

I can see the appeal of a non religious emblem./grave marker{I have been selling & distributing Poppies etc for 15 Years or so & have only ever sold two Crescents!,so % wise I can see the point}a suggested design,or two,to accompany your letter may help give power to your cause,keeping it economical & simple to facilitate production by those concerned.

good luck.

Roger.HB

Failing that a Cross can easily be de-riligified?{new word} by removing the arms of the ply cross with little or no trouble,with a sharp pair of cutters or scissors

[MACRAE]

Andy

I appreciated it was a serious question, mate.

In terms of this sort of thing, it's a bit of a problem for us athiests. By the nature of our convictions, we're a pretty diverse and unorganised group (although I used to be a member of the British Humanist Association - and would probably still turn to them to conduct, say , a funeral service). But it means we don't have a ready made or easily recognisable symbol.

Your idea of a poppy shaped one is a good one, though.

John

Funny that John

I have arranged 2 thousand funerals in 5 years and i never thought for a moment when looking at the humanist list did i ever look for a humanist symbol or logo. It turns out they do it is two people with hands cupping them .

Dan

[John_Hartley]

Roge - ta for the info. will have a think about a design

Dan - didnt know that. The BHA logo is a stylised person thingy - much like many other stylised people thingy logos.

John

[auchonvillerssomme]

Our religious or non-religion beliefs might not be the same as the person we are remembering. Are we placing a symbol for ourselves or for the person we are remembering. As a non believer I still respect the religious beliefs of others so I am quite happy to place a symbol reflecting the belief of the person I'm remembering. Aren't we perhaps indulging ourselves rather than the person who made the sacrifice. After all, why are we leaving a symbol of rememberance at all? We can remember without a display.

Mick

[John_Hartley]

Aren't we perhaps indulging ourselves rather than the person who made the sacrifice. After all, why are we leaving a symbol of rememberance at all?

Yes.

And because I choose to.

John

[John_Hartley]

Following Roger's advice in post #19, I wrote to the RBL. The following is the very positive response received from Nick Buckley, Head of the Poppy Appeal:

Dear Mr Hartley

Thank you very much for your letter of 26th November regarding alternative symbols for use on War Graves.

Your enquiry is quite timely because I have recently been in discussions with colleagues about the provision of an item which would be of similar size and for similar purpose as the wooden crosses but whose design would probably be, for want of a better term, a poppy on a stick. It would have to be able to be stuck in the ground and there would also have to be provision for people to write messages on some part of it. We are at a very early stage and the eventual design would have to be approved by our trustees. Our aim is to have a limited trial next Autumn which could be followed by them being more widely available if the trial proves a success.

Thank you again for contacting us and I think the message I would leave with you is that your proposal may well come to fruition but it may not be for a little while yet.

Yours sincerely

Nick Buckley

Head of Poppy Appeal

[auchonvillerssomme]

A 'poppy on a stick' Can't wait.

Mick