8th Batallion Gloucestershire Regiment

[wcadby]

Has anybody on the form conducted any research into this regiment and battalion at all?

Formed at Bristol, September 1914, as part of K2. September 1914 : attached to 57th Brigade, 19th (Western) Division.

[chaz]

sorry to say , as yet not much , despite having 2 great uncles killed with the 8th.

[SteveE]

Also had a GG Uncle killed with the 8th.

There is some info on them Here

Steve

[wcadby]

Also had a GG Uncle killed with the 8th.

There is some info on them Here

Steve

thanks for the info. My great grandfather, Thomas Michael Moran, served in this regiment and survived until discharged after the war. He died about 5 years later.

Was just curious if anyone had done any further research.

I am attending the national archives this weekend to dig into his records.

[Promenade]

Hi,

You may be interested in the following on Pte Moran

Enlisted on 14/9/14 as No 12990 (his number is in a batch of men who seem to have enlisted in 8 KLR in the Lydney Gloucestershire although I have a note which says that he was associated with Birmingham). He crossed to France 18/7/15 with his Bn (vessel not named in War Diary). He was listed as wounded in the press of 20/12/16. My best guess is that he was wounded in the attack by the Battalion on 18/11/16. The War Diary reports the action as follows:

5am. Formed up in artillery formation preparatory to attack on western outskirts of Grandcourt.

6.10am. Attack launched. First objective reached and carried. The 10th Royal Warwicks on our right being partially held up our flank was in the air.

Casualties :- 12 Officers and 283 other ranks. [in fact 78 other ranks were killed in action that day].

Thomas was evacuated to the UK and discharged from the Army owing to his wounds on 13/12/17 - he was 26 years old at discharge.

He was allocated Silver War Badge No 280860.

Good hunting with his papers - as has been mentioned previously on this site not a lot of Glos Regt papers appear to have survived.

Promenade

[wcadby]

Hi,

You may be interested in the following on Pte Moran

Enlisted on 14/9/14 as No 12990 (his number is in a batch of men who seem to have enlisted in 8 KLR in the Lydney Gloucestershire although I have a note which says that he was associated with Birmingham). He crossed to France 18/7/15 with his Bn (vessel not named in War Diary). He was listed as wounded in the press of 20/12/16. My best guess is that he was wounded in the attack by the Battalion on 18/11/16. The War Diary reports the action as follows:

5am. Formed up in artillery formation preparatory to attack on western outskirts of Grandcourt.

6.10am. Attack launched. First objective reached and carried. The 10th Royal Warwicks on our right being partially held up our flank was in the air.

Casualties :- 12 Officers and 283 other ranks. [in fact 78 other ranks were killed in action that day].

Thomas was evacuated to the UK and discharged from the Army owing to his wounds on 13/12/17 - he was 26 years old at discharge.

He was allocated Silver War Badge No 280860.

Good hunting with his papers - as has been mentioned previously on this site not a lot of Glos Regt papers appear to have survived.

Promenade

Many thanks for this info, it is correct he was associated with Birmingham, having been born and bred in the Aston area of Birmingham.

Where did you manage to find this info?

[Promenade]

Mainly from the National Archives (Silver War Badge and medal rolls - so no need to do this) and also many happy hours, years ago now, scanning newspapers for Glos Regt casualties.

[Potter]

Hi, I'm researching the 8th North Staffords who were also in the 57th Brigade. There is a history of the Divison in print which will give you some basic outline of their experiences:

The Ninteenth Division 1914-1918 by Everard Wyrall

it was originally published in the 1930s but has been reprinted by Naval and Military Press.

The attack on Grandcourt was appalling. They climbed out of what passed for trenches by this stage of the Battle of the Somme, before dawn and in a snow storm. All the battalions were very depleted because of the conditions on the Somme prior to the attack. The attack had been postponed on a number of occasions and when it finally took place, the 57th were allocated frontage which was new to them and had been unreconnoitred. The Gloucesters actually reached their objective, the village of Grandcourt, capturing a gun and some prisoners. Some of the 10 Royal Warwicks in the centre of the brigade attack reached their objective but others were cut off. On the right, 8 North Staffords passed over the German front line, seemingly unaware (which says a lot about conditions) and then were cut off by the Germans. They lost 17 officers (including the CO, who was wounded and captured) and 317 ORs. They effectively ceased to exist as a unit.

Wyrall sums up the complete pointlessness of the attack:

"With regard to the above operations, which may be regarded as unsuccessful, it is only fair to the 19th Division to record the fact that the Divisional Commander from the first strenously opposed the plan at Corps and Army Headquarters. The whole trench system held by the Division was a quagmire and men arrived exhausted in the front line and were in no state to attack. but more important still, the artillery had to fire over a steep hill and form a barrage on the downward slope, the efficacy of which was more than doubtful. At the Corps Conference the GOC predicted the failure of this portion of the attack, owing to these conditions and asked that the attack should only be the nature of a demonstration.

None of the tanks allotted to the 19th Division advanced over the front line, and only one got to within 200 yards of the HQ of 57th Brigade.

When it was finally decided to abandon further offensive operations for the winter 8 Gloucesters and 7 South Lancs were withdrawn from the positions they had captured and a line about 1000 yards further back was consolidated."

Hard to find a better example of utter futulity.

Phil

[Moonraker]

The 8th Gloucestershire was at Tidworth, Wiltshire, from March to July 1915, which ties in with Promenade's date for it crossing to France. It was probably at the barracks built early in the 20th century, though there were prewar camping sites at Tidworth Park and Tidworth Pennings that, unlike other such sites in Wiltshire, did not have hutments erected on them during the war, but were still used in the summer.

Moonraker

[safediver]

Mainly from the National Archives (Silver War Badge and medal rolls - so no need to do this) and also many happy hours, years ago now, scanning newspapers for Glos Regt casualties.

I have recently discovered that my Great Uncle Alfred Iles was killed on 18 Nov 1916 while serving with the 8th Gloucesters. He is buried at Connaught cemetry along with many others from the battalion. From what I have read on this site it seems likely that he died during the attack on Grandcourt.

As a novice researcher, I would appreciate any advice on whether I am likely to find his service records and/or the battalion war diary in the national Archives? Or any other pointers in addition to the very useful information that I have already found on this site.

[delta]

safediver

Welcome to the Forum; it is unlikely that his servcie records will have survived the blitz ; hwoever you should be able to get the war diary from the NA

Stephen

PS I received some elements from another Pal on the forum; it might be worth asking in the Docuemnt repository section if some-one can help.

[Glosters]

I have copies of all the Glosters war diaries (First and Second World War).

Steve

[chris_chinn]

I have copies of all the Glosters war diaries (First and Second World War).

Steve

I may be able to help with queries relating to 8th Glosters if they cover the period Grandcourt 18th Nov and after.

(My great uncle was also killed at Grandcourt. I visited his grave and a number of other cem's this year. As a result I've started a bit of a mammoth job which will take some time to complete.)

1) I now have a probably concise list of all 8th Gloster KIA/DOW related to the Grandcourt attack up to DOW early December. Including officers the list is of 102 officers and O/R. Given a 1 to 2 ratio of killed to wounded, I suspect the list is pretty close to complete. I can publish to those interested what is effectively a Roll of Honour to the 8th Gloster Grandcourt dead.

2) I am now working on those wounded at Grandcourt. Anyone help with any musters? (I shall be visiting the Glosters museum archive early next year in hope).

3) I am now working on the complete muster of officers and men just before the attack. To every name I will add what personal and service details I find, eventual death and location of grave (based on the officer and mm winners list, many were killed later in the war, making me suspect the number not killed or invalided will be small indeed). My muster list to date is 122 strong (mostly the casualty list plus identified officers and military medal winners for the action). Anyone who has a family connection to killed, wounded or men served in the action, get in contact.

4) On my journey I encounted an unidentified corporal of the gloucestershire regiment grave marker. "Between C94 and C98 GRANDCOURT ROAD CEMETERY, GRANDCOURT". The graves either side contain graves of known Glosters lost on the 18th. There are three corporals from this action without known graves-

Cpl 16457 Hill George Frederick

Cpl 13898 Jamieson William James Henry

Cpl 39606 Jones William John

8th Glosters lost a number of men during the pre-assault phase. While almost all of these where as the result of shellfire on their own lines I will still need to research that there are no missing corporals from this phase also (or buried remains whose markers were later lost). I can not find later movements of Glosters over this ground, but still have to track down the CWGC burial records for C94,96,98 to help with the research. If you may be related to any of the three listed here, digging out family records or knowledge, even that uncle George was a tall man may help discount (it will be important to positively discount all except one before working on then positively identifying that man). Cpl Hill was born in Stonehouse, Glos, Cpl Jamieson born in north fleet, kent, Cpl Jones born Horwich Lancs. I've made some in roads, in that Cpl Jones now has his parents identified and Horwich heritage will be working on tracing relatives to get his CWGC record updated.

If anyone has a pdf copy of the trench maps for Grancourt/Thiepval it would be appreciated.

I've turned email notify on, archaeology and history is only my lunch and weekend 'job' so if I'm overwhelmed be sympathetic.

[safediver]

Having gained a lot of information from this forum, I decided to download the 8th Gloucester's war diaries from the NA. I have July 1915 to Dec 1916 and would be happy to share this infromation. I also have my Gt Uncle's medal card but have not yet looked for his service record.

Chris Chinn - I would be very interested to see your roll of honour for Grandcourt. I have assumed that my Great Uncle Corporal Alfred Iles died there but the only information I have is that he was killed in action on 18 Nov 1916 and is buried at Connaught cemetry

[chris_chinn]

One more grave added to Grandcourt roll.

An 8th Glos man incorrect in cwgc- anyone know of Brazier relatives out there wish to take this up?

Entry sdgw-

Pvt, 39558, Brazier, Robert William, k in a, 18/11/16, b. stortford herts, e. Hertford

formerly 3498 Hertfordshire rgt

Entry cwgc-

Pvt, 39558, Brazier, Robert William, 23, 18/11/1915, Connaught Cemetery (VIII. E. 2.)

B coy, Son of Arthur Robert and Elizabeth Brazier, of Market Square, Bishop's Stortford, Herts.

(Connaught Cemetery not begun till autumn 1916.....)

regards,

Chris.

[bernie]

Mainly from the National Archives (Silver War Badge and medal rolls - so no need to do this) and also many happy hours, years ago now, scanning newspapers for Glos Regt casualties.

[bernie]

Would you have any records relating to Offord Ashwin Teale of the Glos Regt who was wounded in WW1.

Bernie

[chris_chinn]

Current list of probable present at Grandcourt (including those killed on the day) now stands at aproximately 400. After Christmas I expect this to go up to between 500 and 600. These additional men are predominately based on those that did not survive the war (with service number contemporary to highest known at Grandcourt but with date of death afterwards). There are also those issued with medals at Grandcourt and officers listed.

I am looking into a way of searching medal card records by range of service numbers to try to find as many more as I can.

If anyone encounters a muster roll for any companys please let me know.

Offord Ashwin Teale -

Pvt 241704 Teale Offord Ashwin

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=8

Based on rsn and deaths patern indicates probable wounded during or after March 1918.

List below.

241303 Ireland 20/12/1917

241477 Eastbury 28/03/1918

241521 Marshall 28/10/1918

241623 Lewis 23/03/1918

241704 Teale -

241791 Harding 24/03/1918

241880 Mariner 11/04/1918

242268 Clark 30/05/1918

242459 Hobbs 02/04/1918

[bernie]

Current list of probable present at Grandcourt (including those killed on the day) now stands at aproximately 400. After Christmas I expect this to go up to between 500 and 600. These additional men are predominately based on those that did not survive the war (with service number contemporary to highest known at Grandcourt but with date of death afterwards). There are also those issued with medals at Grandcourt and officers listed.

I am looking into a way of searching medal card records by range of service numbers to try to find as many more as I can.

If anyone encounters a muster roll for any companys please let me know.

Offord Ashwin Teale -

Pvt 241704 Teale Offord Ashwin

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=8

Based on rsn and deaths patern indicates probable wounded during or after March 1918.

List below.

241303 Ireland 20/12/1917

241477 Eastbury 28/03/1918

241521 Marshall 28/10/1918

241623 Lewis 23/03/1918

241704 Teale -

241791 Harding 24/03/1918

241880 Mariner 11/04/1918

242268 Clark 30/05/1918

242459 Hobbs 02/04/1918

[bernie]

Thanks Chris,

Offord Ashwin Teale. Is my interpretation correct that it is highly possibe that Offord was wounded around March 1918 and if so, have you any idea of the possible location? Grandcourt???

His son has told me that Offord after being wounded, was hospitalised in the Southampton area - would that be the Netley hospital and I presume their records must be somewhere!!!

Val is 80+ and would love to see where his father served and was wounded. If I could find out more, I would certainly take him even at my tender age!!

Bernie

[Promenade]

Bernie,

Offord Ashwin Teale was born in Hammersmith London in about 1887 and in 1901 was working as a page boy in Stanton Glos. On 12 December 1915 he enlisted as No 4862 (later renumbered to 241704) in 1/5 Glos Regt. He was discharged from the Army (due to wounds) on 20 February 1918 aged 31.

Promenade

[bernie]

Bernie,

Offord Ashwin Teale was born in Hammersmith London in about 1887 and in 1901 was working as a page boy in Stanton Glos. On 12 December 1915 he enlisted as No 4862 (later renumbered to 241704) in 1/5 Glos Regt. He was discharged from the Army (due to wounds) on 20 February 1918 aged 31.

Promenade

[bernie]

Thanks a million Promenade, it never ceases to amaze me how knowledgeable and helpful you chaps are. Wounded at Grandcourt!!!!

Bernie

[chris_chinn]

Thanks a million Promenade, it never ceases to amaze me how knowledgeable and helpful you chaps are. Wounded at Grandcourt!!!!

Bernie

Hi Bernie,

I doubt wounded at Grandcourt.

If he was 1/5th as Promenade indicates from his research, then given his discharge Feb 1918 it is likely he was wounded in the latter part of 1917.

Without further research I couldn't tell, but 1/5th would have been in action in Cambrai sector late 1917.

Not sure if he was transferred to 8th Glos?

The service number is close to others issued to 8th Glos men at that time.

8th at that time where involved in attacks at Druids Farm in August and then Kemmel,Kleine Zillebeke later in the 3rd Ypres offensive.

Regards,

Chris.

[Promenade]

Chris,

Not sure what you mean when you say that the number is close to others issued to 8th Glos men at that time. This is a 6 fig territorial number slap bang in the 5th Battalion allocation. Can you elaborate? By the way I have no information that Teale was ever in the 8th Glos Regt according to my sources he only served in 1/5 Glos Regt.

Promenade