Tsingtao 1914

[Ferguson73uk]

At last night's South Wales branch meeting of the Western Front Assosiation, a topic came up that I hope fellow Pals can resolve. The talk was about the action at Tsingtao in 1914 and a colleague affirmed that members of the South Wales Borderers who took part in that action were not entitled to the 1914-15 Star, unless they later served on the Western Front or at Gallipoli. Does anyone know if this is correct? Seems rather unfair if true.

Thanks,

Jonathan

[per ardua per mare per terram]

According to Major NW Poulsom, 'A Catalogue and of Campaign and Independence medals Issued During the 20th C. to the British Army'

1914-15 Star "Theatres of War -

5. (m) Tsing-Tau, between 23rd September 1914 and 7th November 1914, both dates inclusive."

On the medal rolls it will probably been shown as 5h.

[Ferguson73uk]

Thanks for the reply! I have to say there was quite a strong body of opinion amongst the members in favour of no issue, including the speaker, who was adamant that the SWB killed at Tsingtao did not qualify for the Star. Wonder where this idea came from?

Jonathan

[PhilB]

Gordon`s "Battles and Medals" indicates that the 14/15 star was awarded for all theatres of war, providing the recipient didn`t qualify for the 14 star, which, of course, he didn`t for Tsingtao. Phil B

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Tsingtao is shown as a theatre in its own right: as '5h' in William Spencer's various guides to service records and medals.

Could it be that those advocating something different for the SWB just haven't found a second medal index card? Or that there was a mistake at time of issue.

As Phil points out the general rule is 'all theatres of war' except Freance and Belgium covered by the 1914 Star so there shouldn't have been much debate.

[GrenPen]

On 04/11/2006 at 07:59, Ferguson73uk said:

At last night's South Wales branch meeting of the Western Front Association, a topic came up that I hope fellow Pals can resolve......those South Wales Borderers who took part in that action were not entitled to the 1914-15 Star, unless they later served on the Western Front or at Gallipoli.

 

This does make sense when looking at the medal rolls. It seems as though to start with it was disallowed. Maybe there was talk of it being some sort of overseas clasp; I have come across men in Africa who were in combat from August 1914 onwards; they received the 1914/15 Star.

I have come across men who left the regiment after Tsingtao (to jon the likes of Army Cyclist Corps, Machine Gun Corps, RWF) yet there is no reference to Tsingtao on the medal index cards. This is not the case for men who stayed with the SWB.

[gem22]

John Dixon's book 'A clash of empires' The Second Battalion SWB at Tsingtao 1914 has, as Appendix 1, the Nominal Roll.

The information may help you:

 

'The following nominal roll gives the names and ranks of members of the 2nd Battalion The South Wales Borderers who were stationed in Tientsin at the outbreak of the Great War. It has been compiled from the documents held at the Regimental Museum in Brecon (Ref:BRCRM1996.76) and cross referenced with the Medal Index Cards held at the National Archive. Most of those listed served during the siege of Tsingtao and those that did not are clearly indicated in the notes attached to each entry. Soldiers serving in the operation in front of Tsingtao were entitled to the 1914-1915 Star. It is not certain that all the soldiers that remained in Tientsin were awarded the medal or indeed that submissions were made for the medal. Where there is information on the subsequent service of the soldier concerned this is also indicated in the notes. it will be noticed that the 2nd Battalion the South Wales Borderers suffered heavy casualties in later fighting, notably, Gallipoli. It also be noted that very few of the soldiers who were present with the battalion in China were with it when the war ended.'

 

I hope that that quote adds useful info to that provided by other Pals.

 

Garth

Edited 12 April , 2017 by gem22

[kenf48]

The Medal Rolls were not as readily available eleven years ago after the meeting of the South Wales WFA!

 

They clearly show those men of the 2nd Bn SWB who were awarded the 14-15 Star for Tsingtao entered theatre '23.9.14 (5H)'

 

e.g. Three sequential pages start Here and there are plenty of others either side, if you have access.

 

Ken

 

 

[GrenPen]

The mystery, to me, is why are those people who left the SWB to join other units in 1915 - in particular the Army Cyclist Corps - not having mention of their participation at Tsingtao?

There are several men - for instance Percy Powley - who appear in the nominal roll that John Dixon and Major Martin Everett compiled. He appears as just "P. Powley" because an MIC with his name and SWB service number did not materialise. (They used the MICs for the other men to give a potted bio for each man.)

Powley's service record has survived, which documents his time in China, and subsequent transfer to the Army Cyclist Corps on 6 February 1915, with the result that his "first theatre of war" is recorded as Gallipoli. Many of the men on the same page of the roll are ex 2nd SWB. There is simply no mention of their prior service with the South Wales Borderers.

I'd been hoping for some official correspondence to come to light as to the idea of Tsingtao being disallowed. All I could think of is the fact that it was not eligible for the 1914 Star, but was instead subsequently within scope for the 1914/15 Star, which could confuse some people looking at the subject for the first time. Given that these were WFA people that were adamant, I would have expected some source material to back up the concept of Tsingtao not being allowed.

The lion's share of medal index cards for these men do state Tsingtao, but it seems peculiar that for some men (as stated above), their Tsingtao service is not mentioned on neither the MIC nor the resultant roll.

[kenf48]

According to Aitchison the embarkation records show 22 officers and 910 men embarked for Tsingtao.  66 men of all ranks including the band boys and unfit remained at Tientsin.  This latter group would not have qualified for the medal, returning to the UK and on to Gallipoli they would qualify in 1915.

 

I think the question we should be asking 'Did anyone who went to Tsingtao but not Gallipoli miss out on the 14-15 Star?'.

 There are many anomalies in the Rolls and these often appear after transfers as the Rolls were submitted five years after the event.

 

Ken

Edited 13 April , 2017 by kenf48

[GrenPen]

Ken and Garth,

Thanks for your responses, and references to the books by Dixon on Tsingtao, and Aitchison's regimental history.

 

Regards