Regulus 1 Posted 3 November , 2006 Share Posted 3 November , 2006 He was KIA 04/10/1917, Son of John and Ellen Muir, of Pleasant Point, South Canterbury, New Zealand. I would like to add him to my book, can anyone tell me more about him, his unit, circumstances of his death ? Any help much appreciated ! Thanks and best from Johan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regulus 1 Posted 4 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 4 November , 2006 Nobody ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Nelson Posted 4 November , 2006 Share Posted 4 November , 2006 Hi Johan, I am no expert on the Canterburys, but will answer your query as detailed as I can. On the 4th of October 1917, the New Zealand Division took part in the Battle of Broodseinde, this was one of the later actions of the 3rd Battle of Ypres as the British advanced towards Passchendaele. The Battle itself was very successul. The New Zealanders were alloted a 2000 yard wide front, attacking to a depth of 1000 yards. The only Canterbury unit taking part in the attack was the 3rd Canterybury Battalion, which was part of the New Zealand 4th Brigade. I presume your man Muir was in the 3rd Canterbury Battalion. The Canterbury Battalion was in the second wave of infantry attacking that day. Once the first objective had been gained, ( The crest of the ridge just short of Gravenstafel Village) the Canterbury men, along with 2nd Wellington/ 2nd Auckland, and 3d Wellington Battalioins would leapfrog the first wave to the Blue Line, which was at the foot of the Bellevue Spur in the Stroombeek Valley, 500 yards east of Gravenstavel. The Germans were planning an attack of their own that day, at 6.00am the British artlliery fired the pre arraned Barrage on to the German positions. Three fresh German Divisions were caught out in the open in this opening barrage, the results were devastating and casualties extrememy high. As a result the German infantry never recovered from this initial blow of very bad timing. The first objective was easily taken, now the Canterbury men followed up on this initial advance and continued on to the 2nd objective, they were making thier way over the Abraham heights, this is where they suffered heavy casualties from machine gun fire, German positions to the North and Northeast on the higher ground had a clear view of them advancing. they poured heavy machine gun rounds into the advancing lines. This is most likely where John Muir was killed, although you cant be certain. They then continued down the Eastern slopes of the hieghts and had to knock out two pill boxes. All the objectives were gained, at a heavy cost of life. This was the only action of the 3rd Canterbury Battalion, as the 4th Brigade was then disbanded as the New Zealand Division restructured back to a 3 brigade Division. Thats about all I have in regards to the action of Pvt Muir that day. His regimental number indicates this would have been his first taste of action on the Western Front. Kindest regards Aaron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kookaburra Posted 4 November , 2006 Share Posted 4 November , 2006 Nobody ? Nothing much on his Nominal Record Surname MUIR Given Name John Category Nominal Roll Vol. 3 Regimental Number 44981 Rank Private Next of Kin Title Mrs E Next of Kin Surname MUIR Next of Kin Relationship Mother Next of Kin Address Totara Valley Pleasant Point South Canterbury Roll 60 Page 5 Occupation Farm Labourer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackNZ Posted 4 November , 2006 Share Posted 4 November , 2006 The New Zealand Expeditionary Force Roll of Honour only has the following on him: "44981 Pte Muir, John, CIR, Killed in action, France, 4/10/17" The CWGC Casualty Details are: Name MUIR, JOHN Initials J Nationality New Zealand Rank Private Regiment/Service Canterbury Regiment, N.Z.E.F. Unit Text3rd Bn Age 21 Date of Death04/10/1917 Service No 44981 Additional information Son of John and Ellen Muir, of Pleasant Point, South Canterbury, New Zealand. Cemetery: TYNE COT CEMETERY Tyne Cot Cemetery is located 9 kilometres north east of Ieper town centre, on the Tynecotstraat, a road leading from the Zonnebeekseweg (N332). Check out the CWGC at http://www.cwgc.org Your best bet would be to check out New Zealand newspaper references of the time (e.g The Press Oct, Nov, Dec 1917) to get any further information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Nelson Posted 5 November , 2006 Share Posted 5 November , 2006 Hi, Just to confirm, He definently served in the 3rd Canterbury Battalion, so the action I described earlier was accurately describing his final moments and how he was Killed in action. Also, the bulk of the info was qouted from the book "Massecre at Passchendale"written by Glyn Harper. Kindest regards Aaron Nelson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barkalotloudly Posted 5 November , 2006 Share Posted 5 November , 2006 "the history of the Canterbury Regiment" has a couple of pages on this action plus a very basic map regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regulus 1 Posted 5 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 5 November , 2006 Thank you very much gentlemen ! Aaron may I quote your text in my book ? Thanks and best from Johan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Nelson Posted 6 November , 2006 Share Posted 6 November , 2006 Thank you very much gentlemen ! Aaron may I quote your text in my book ? Thanks and best from Johan Hi Johan, Not my place to deny or confirm this, best you approach the publisher/author of the book. ( Lieutenant Colonel) Glyn Harper is a New Zealand author and official army historian of the NZ army. The publishers website is www.harpercollins.co.nz, title of the book 'Massacre at Passhendaele - The New Zealand story' It was first published in 200 and then reprinted in 2003. The 2nd and fourth paragraphs of my earlier post on this thread is the info I quoted from the book. cheers Aaron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMacdonald Posted 6 November , 2006 Share Posted 6 November , 2006 I was speaking with Glyn last night. The book is to be soon republished. My relative served with 3/Canterbury on 4.10.17 and I have the nominal rolls and company registers for that period for the Bn. There are a couple of good texts floating around for this unit on this day. Andy M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackNZ Posted 7 November , 2006 Share Posted 7 November , 2006 Tracked a little more … Your man embarked on the transport ship “Pakeha” 14 April 1917 and left New Zealand 26th April 1917. He was a member of 24th Reinforcements (second draft) Canterbury Infantry Regiment C Company. On board was C Company, F Company, Field artillery, Specialist Company, Field Engineers, Postal; Services, Army Services Corps, Medical Corps, Dental Corps, Army Pay Department, Army Nursing Service, Chaplains, G Company (part), H Company, J Company and Maori Contingent 16th reinforcements. Officer commanding troops on board: Major James Murphy (Warehouseman) 37044. Source Nominal Roll No 60. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackNZ Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 I'm doing some other research at National Library so when I go I'll have a quick look for you,,, Zacknz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kookaburra Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 I'm doing some other research at National Library so when I go I'll have a quick look for you,,, Zacknz Where do you find that embarkation information? Most of the Service Files I've viewed lately at Archives don't have the ships names only the dates they left NZ. Cheers, Diane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackNZ Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 Diane I use bound hard copies because they contain the ships names; dates and what military regiments etc were on board and when they left etc. It gives this level of detail before giving the actual nominal roll data. Invaluable data really and ‘archivists’ / ‘genealogists’ producing microfiche / CD rom resources fail to record this data! Don't get me wrong though as the NZSG CD rom is very useful but inaccurate (but to their credit they reissued this CD rom) – sadly still doesn’t record all details and I just don’t rely on it. Service files at Archives might or might not give the ship detail but if it does, it usually (in my experience) just gives the troopship number and leaves you to identify the ship's name. Frustrating but even so you usually can place a person with a ship if you have the date they left New Zealand - just takes a little longer. You probably already know but the hard copy of the NZEF War Diary (only covers the main body Oct 16 1914 details) provides ship transport details. Maybe one day someone will produce electronic data that captures all the information currently available on the published nominal roll hard copies. Other countries like Australia seem to be moving down this track - real valuable national identity heritage! Happy to do any look-ups for you - just keep in mind that I'm an enthusiastic amateur! Regards zacknz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackNZ Posted 11 November , 2006 Share Posted 11 November , 2006 Well some good news – I found your man – two brief articles and one photograph- at the National Library when I was doing some other research…here you go (enjoy): (NOTE: They called him “Jack” not “John” but same difference!) “ROLL OF HONOUR MUIR – Killed in action, on October 4, 1917, Private Jack Muir, dearly beloved son of J and E Muir, Totara Valley, aged 21 years.” SOURCE: The Timaru Herald, Friday October 26 1917 (no page numbers provided in this newspaper) “Private Jack Muir (killed) left with the 24th Reinforcements. He was the fifth son of Mr and Mrs John Muir, Totara Valley, Pleasant Point, formerly of Springston, and was in his 21st year. Private Muir was born at Springston, and educated at the Hazelburn School, Pleasant Point. On leaving school he took up farm work. He was a keen Territorial, and enlisted in the 25th Reinforcements the day he was 20 years of age. In camp he was transferred to the 24th Reinforcements. Another brother, Private Archie Muir, enlisted in the 6th Reinforcements, leaving New Zealand on August 14th 1915. He was in action on Gallipoli, and was there at the evacuation. On reaching France he was sent to a sniping school, and has been a sniper since July 1916.” SOURCE: The Weekly Press Vol LVIII No 2751 Christchurch December 5th 1917 Page 8. I will post this separately. Title of photograph PRIVATE JACK MUIR TOTORA VALLEY killed in action Photo: The Weekly Press Vol LVIII No 2751 December 5th 1917, page 28 Other brother: (He seemed to have survived the war …well he isn’t listed in the CWGC.....) Archie Muir nominal roll details: Surname MUIR Given Name Archie Henry Category Nominal Roll Vol. 1 Regimental Number 12/2790 Rank Private Body or Draft Sixth Unit or Regiment Auckland Infantry Batln Marital Status S Last NZ Address Patumahoe Waikato Next of Kin Title Mrs E Next of Kin Surname MUIR Next of Kin Relationship Mother Next of Kin Address Pleasant Point via Timaru Cheers Zacknz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kookaburra Posted 11 November , 2006 Share Posted 11 November , 2006 I use bound hard copies because they contain the ships names; dates and what military regiments etc were on board and when they left etc. Happy to do any look-ups for you - just keep in mind that I'm an enthusiastic amateur! Are there any of these hard bound copies at National Library at all? I was there last Monday after spending most of the day at Archives and I'll be back down there on Wednesday. I'm part of a group in Levin called "Adopt an Anzac" and we are trying to write small potted histories on the men who died from our area in all the wars. I appreciate you offerring to do look ups only I have a lot of men I'm researching. Cheers, Diane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackNZ Posted 11 November , 2006 Share Posted 11 November , 2006 National library is certain to have copies. I don't use them but they will be there - suggest you ask them for help. My offer still stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackNZ Posted 11 November , 2006 Share Posted 11 November , 2006 Sorry I'm having real difficulties getting the photo on the site (and I've read all the information on 'how to' but it still won't work!) Please contact me direct and I will email you the actual photo. The photo title: "Jack Muir Totara Valley Killed in action." Source of photo: The Weekly Press Vol LVIII No 2751 December 5th 1917, page 28 Please note that the quality isn’t great as it’s a photo of a photograph from a microfiche record if you get my drift but it gives you an idea what he looked like and I’m sure if your need a 'print standard' copy you could contact the National library direct and they could take an actual photo of the actual newspaper. The organisation to contact giving the specific photo source reference as noted above to purchase a photograph is: http://www.natlib.govt.nz Cheers Zacknz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regulus 1 Posted 13 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2006 Zacknz, This is really wonderful news ! Thank you very much ! I already had given up hope to find much more on the man. However this is all I need ! Glad I will be able to add his name and info to the men I wanted to mention at Tyne Cot ! Again sincere thanks and best from Johan ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackNZ Posted 13 November , 2006 Share Posted 13 November , 2006 My pleasure - I enjoy the hunt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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