1ST BATTALION SCOTS GUARDS

[Maximus]

Hi

My Great Uncle James was killed in action on October 11th 1917, the battle for Passendale, Ypres.

Would anybody have any photos of the batallion or individual photos of the soldiers that I could view, I would love to see what he or his pals looked like.

He was just 29 years of age when he was killed.

thanks

maxie1

[Coldstreamer]

Hello

I have one of C Coy 1st Btn SG - send me a PM with your email

[Coldstreamer]

Hello

you could try local papers

whats his service number so I can see where he lived

[Malcolm]

Details

Surname McLEAN

Firstname James

Service Number 12043

Date Death 09/10/1917

Decoration

Place of birth Linlithgow

Other

SNWM roll SCOTS GUARDS

Rank Gdsn

Theatre of death F.& F.

The 1st Scots Guards are not mentioned in the 9th October entry for the Guards Division action in the Passchendaele Day by Day Account.

There were 35 dead in 1st SG this day so they must have been in action.

Aye

Malcolm

Edited 13 August , 2006 by Malcolm

[Chris_Baker]

I've merged the two threads on this subject.

[Coldstreamer]

Malcolm

The dates dont match - thats why i wanted the number to check before

and well spotted chris !

[Maximus]

Thank you so much for your replies

You have the correct person, James reg no is 12043, I have just started researching what happened to James and need all the help I can get.

James was listed as living in Wimbledon and at first I thought I had the wrong person, but I have been told that a lot of the men from Scotland were in digs so as to be closer to London.

Cheers J

[Owen D]

SDGW has him

born Linlithgow.

Enlisted Dunfermline.

Living Wimbledon.

Killed 9/10/17.

[Owen D]

[Owen D]

[Owen D]

[Owen D]

9th October Guards Div were crossing the Broembeek.

2nd Guards Brigade were on the left of the attack.

2nd (Guards) Brigade.

3rd Bn Grenadier Guards.

1st Bn Coldstream Guards.

1st Bn Scots Guards.

2nd Bn Irish Guards.

Looking at in Headlam's Guards Div history ,

The rain ceased failing soon after midnight and the weather in the early hours of the 9th of October was fine with a drying wind. Zero was at 5.30 am and punctually at that hour the British artillery barrage came down......The intial diffuctly of the 2nd Guards Brigade on the left was the crossing of the swamp which lay south of the Broembeek, the shell-holes in this area having been converted into a series of ponds. However, except for the fire of a machine gun in Ney Wood, which for a short time delayed the advance of the 2nd Bn Irish Guards, the enemy made no serious attempt to contest the passage of the stream, and,when once this had been crossed on bridges, the attacking troops had no great difficulties against which to contend before reaching their first objective-a line running slighty north-west on the far side of the road leading to Lannes farm.

The new line gained by the two brigades was at once put into a state of defence, and then, after a pause of forty-five minutes, the creeping barrage came down again and the advance resumed by the supporting companies of the attacking battalions.....There was really no other organized opposition to the advancing troops on the front of either brigade before the second line of objectives was reached. This line extended from a point a little west of the Ypres-Stadden railway line westwards towards the Langemarck-Koekuit-Houlthulst road to a point about 1000 yards south-east of Veldhoek. The Guards were in possession of it by 8.15 am, and in touch with the 29th Division on their right and the French on their left

Ponsonby's History of Grenadiers says,

The attack of the 2nd Guards Brigade was to be undertaken by the 1st Battalion Scots Guards and the 2nd Battalion Irish Guards. who were to seize the first two objectives, while the attack on the third objective was entrusted to the 3rd Battalion Grenadiers and 1st Coldstream.

[Maximus]

Thanks Owen

So emotional reading your notes on events, must have been hell on earth

for those boys

J

[dhubthaigh]

Hello,

Alexander Adam, Gdsm., 1st Battalion Scots Guards - KIA 9th October 1917.

I had a look at the sister site (LLT); seems on that date he would have perished during the Battle of Poelcapelle.

However entry in Du Ruvigny's states killed in action Langemarcke and buried there.

Anyone with any knowledge of this? same action different naming!?

Any help is appreciated.

regards,

Mark

[Armoured Farmer]

Hello,

CWGC has him on the Tyne Cot Memorial

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=845656

Name: ADAM, ALEXANDER ROLLS

Initials: A R

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Scots Guards

Unit Text: 1st Bn.

Age: 21

Date of Death: 09/10/1917

Service No: 15193

Additional information: Son of James and Jessie Ann Adam, of The Laurels, Perth Rd., Blairgowrie, Perthshire.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 10.

He was one of 29 men from 1st SG killed in action that day, one officer was also killed in action and 4 men died of wounds.

I'm sorry but I can't help with the question of where he died.

Regards

Farmer

[dhubthaigh]

Thanks for reply Farmer,

Aye, I knew he was subsequently commemorated at Tyne Cot. The burial area must have been completely destroyed after that and the graves lost.

cheers,

Mark

[Owen D]

Hope this map and close up from Ponsonby's History of Gren Gds helps.

I'll do a look up into the action from Headlam's Gds Div history another time.

[Owen D]

From Ponsonby page 248

The Crossing of the Broembeek.

Oct 9th

In Sergison-Brooke's Brigade, the 1st Bn Scots Guards and the 2nd Bn Irish Guards succeeded in crossing the stream, and reaching the first objective by the appointed time. They, however, expericienced some difficulty at Ney Wood, where the enemy had posted a strong machine-gun nest

 

[dhubthaigh]

Many thanks for all the posts/help. Excellent and very much appreciated.

Mark

[Hambo]

Mark

There is a detailed account of this action in the history of the Scots Guards in the Great War, if you send me a PM with your email I'll scan the relevent pages for you

Hambo

[IGWWI]

Having just joined the Forum I'm not sure if there is any point me posting to such an old chain of posts but I am really very interested in the topic being discussed & the maps referenced here.

My GF was shot (but just wounded) during the action that started on 9th October 1917, so I'm trying to find out all I can about the events (also my son is visiting Ypres in March so I want to provide him with more concrete information).

The maps provided look great but are of course low resolution, so I'm wondering if anyone in the debate can point me to where I can obtain copies of the originals? The Guards Division Operations Map in particular looks fascinating & really brings home where everything was happening, when viewed in conjunction with Kipling's 'War Diary' books for the Irish Guards.

[clk]

If you haven't already seen them, it might well be worth having a look at the Brigade HQ, and Divisional HQ (General Staff) war diaries. They should contain quite a bit of information as appendices. For example, the Divisional HQ diary includes 2 contemporary aerial photos of the attack area. The diaries are available from Ancestry (by subscription, or free14 day trial trial), or to download from the National Archives (£3.30 a go). It's also worth being aware of this website which allows you to see how a selection of trench maps fit into the modern landscape.

Regards

Chris

[IGWWI]

Thanks Chris,

Have downloaded some items from NA - useful reading, though Kiplings books on the IGs seems to have 'borrowed' quite a lot of the content & so some of it I'd read previously. I am also a member of Ancestry so will search again there. Thanks also for the link to the maps pages with trench map overlays - that is really interesting, shows nicely the area up to Houthulst Forest that my GF would have been moving across.

I'm fascinated to know where the great map provided by Owen D came from (the Guards Divison Operations Map for October 1917). It is brilliant for giving context & just the sort of thing I'm after, but rather low resolution, so I'm wondering where I can find the original (?).

[KevinBattle]

Owen D was last on the Forum in Sept 2013.

Rather an ominous silence, I wonder if other Pals have any update?

We may also have some Irish Guards experts who might assist you...

You might want to consider a thread devoted to Andrew and/or Irish Guards as there might be a wealth of further information - you never know!

You don't say if your GF was 2nd Battalion when wounded, but if he was then he may well have known these men:

QUIRKE, MICHAEL. Rank: Private. Service No: 11530. Date of Death: 12/09/1917. Age: 30.

Regiment/Service: Irish Guards 2nd Bn.

Panel Reference: Panel 10 to 11. Memorial: TYNE COT MEMORIAL.

Additional Information: Son of the late John Quirke; husband of Sarah Quirke, of Clonganny, Clonevan, Gorey, Co. Wexford.

REILLY, T. Rank: Private. Service No: 11532. Date of Death: 20/04/1918.

Regiment/Service: Irish Guards 2nd Bn.

Grave Reference: B. 1. Cemetery: CINQ RUES BRITISH CEMETERY, HAZEBROUCK

[IGWWI]

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for the information. I have actually started another thread about my GF although I'm new to this Forum & I called it 'Irish Guards October 1917......' - do you think I should have put my GFs name (& number) in the thread title? (not sure if you change the thread title once created)?

The information you sent through is intriguing, as my suspicion was that my GF was initially in the 2nd Bn but the records I obtained from the Guards (short service record, conduct sheet, report on enlistment, military history sheet) really are not clear on this point at all. Your post now makes me question how the service numbers are allocated & whether after training it has any bearing on which BN people are allocated too. Do you happen to know? The documents I've seen all say 'Regmtl. No' which implies they are unique within a regiment. i.e. I'm assuming the number 11531 would be unique across the 2 Battalions (in fact across all BNs in the Irish Guards?). In which case, if 11532 & 11530 were both in the 2nd Battalion does that suggest 11531 would have been too (i.e. would they have perhaps allocated a group of numbers to one BN together?). I'm assuming my GF was actually in 3 BN initially as I believe that was a training BN for the Irish Guards at the time he enlisted.

As an aside, after he recovered from the wounds sustained in October 1917 my GF was attached to the Machine Gun Corp for just a week & they allocated him a new number 1756 (End of Jan 1918) - but it clearly didn't work out (either they didn't like him, or vice versa!?) as that number was then crossed out on all records & he was reassigned to the IGs again 6/2/18 & given his old number back - again no indication of whether he they went into 1 BN or 2 BN, just that he rejoined the BEF. He was demobbed in 1920 from 1 BN but by then 2 BN had been effectively disbanded I believe.

My father signed up in Boyle in October 1916 & I wonder if this means these other 2 men signed up at the same time.

Finally, thanks once again for the info. It is quite poignant that the numbers enlisting either side of my GF were both killed - one in October 1917 around the time my GF was wounded. I may re-post this information to the newer thread if you think that would be wise?