WOII Service Dress 1918-1919

[Grovetown]

Could someone possibly tell me if at all, and when, WOIIs - RQMS to be precise - adopted, instead of the '1902' SD, the officer-style open-necked tunic worn with collar and tie?

The reason for asking is I've acquired a large amount of ephemera to an RQMS, in which there is one photo of a chap wearing said officer style SD; and I was wondering if it could be the man himself.

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

[grantsmil]

Grovetown,

I do not know of any dress orders, but I have made observations of AIF Warrant Officers uniforms from WW1 photographs. It would appear that the WOs wore a service dress jacket, with a collar the same as the ORs, but with sleeve ends like an officers tunic. The very few photos you do see of the WOs, they are also wearing a single strap Sam Browne belt. I will hunt around for some images.

[walrus]

I seem to recall a photograph of a chap, badged as QMS*, wearing an "officers'" SD "stepped collar" style jacket, with collar and tie, but I can't accurately recall the source#, IIRC he was TF.

Regards

Tom

* Wearing the pre Feb 1918, four chevron & star badge, but (IIRC) the photo was captioned as RSM (perhaps he was 'acting-up')

# I think it was in the book "Terriers in the Trenches"+, which would make him Post Office Rifles

+ No details, I'm afraid, I can't lay my hands on my copy.

[Muerrisch]

* Wearing the pre Feb 1918, four chevron & star badge, but (IIRC) the photo was captioned as RSM (perhaps he was 'acting-up')

that badge disappeared with the 1915 changes when QMS became WO II and wore crown until 1918 when wreath added to denote rqms appointment.

[walrus]

I was under the impression that the 4 chevrons were in use until '18 - Ah well, you live and learn!

Either way, the illustration showed 4 chevrons, so perhaps it was pre/early-war.

Tom

[grantsmil]

I located an image of an Australian WO1, wearing the high collar jacket, with the 'officer V cuffs', that I mentioned earlier. I have also hunted through numerous photos, and the only consistant 'rule' that appears to apply is the wearing of a single strap Sam Browne.

The other images mainly show the subject wearing a standard service dress with the Sam Browne, be they Australian or British

[Grovetown]

Thanks for the input lads.

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

[Graham Stewart]

Grovetown,

This is how you would expect to see Warrant Offices Class I & II dressed during the Great War, but having viewed thousand upon thousands of such photographs you often see the WOI dressed as such but it's very rare to see WOII's(CSM's) in the dress of S.D. of Warrant Officers as pictured.

Now I haven't got Dress Regulations for WO's during this period, but it would appear that there was conflict regarding the dress of WO's and it would appear that they were not allowed to wear the officers stepped collared S.D. type jacket.

From a source I have it goes onto say;- "WOI's were permitted to wear a superior type of S.D. jacket with stand and fall collar, but ACI 130 of 1924 forbade both the wearing of the officers type S.D. jacket by WOI's and of the WOI's S.D. jacket by WOII's".

Graham.

[Grovetown]

Thanks Graham.

That's very helpful indeed.

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

[Michael Johnson]

Regs are one thing, practice, another.

I have a photo of my grandfather (a French Army Adjutant=WO) attached to an RE Park. Honorary Lieutenant Plowright is wearing the old-style closed neck tunic. My grandfather is wearing what appears to be British s.d. with French rank badges, and I recall my aunt once telling me that he wore British Officer's uniform and messed with them. (Of course back in Welland he ran a steel plant, sat on the school board, and was a Justice of the Peace).

[grantsmil]

I have had a look through the Australian Military Forces, Standing Orders for Dress and Clothing, 1912 and 1918. I could find no mention of W.O.s being permitted to wear the Officer's pattern jackets. In the revised edition of December 1918 there is a detailed description of the Officers dress; "Jackets, Commonwealth Pattern, Officers (step collar) - Single-breasted". While every mention of the "Jackets, Service Dress - Universal pattern as sealed" is to be worn by "all ranks except officers." These Standing Orders closely follow the British orders and I would suspect the same, or similar, would apply for the British army.

In all descriptions of 'Orders Of Dress' Officers are listed separately from the other ranks and Warrant Officers are always included as "Warrant and Non-commissioned Officers and Men".

I could also not find any mention of W.O.s being permitted to wear Sam Browne belts.

There is some more information out there .......... somewhere.