Non-commemoration

[Hywyn]

Yesterday I visited St Michaels Churchyard at Llanrug, Caernarfonshire (Carnarvonshire in WW1)

There I saw a gravestone that bore the inscription (translated)

' Capt William Jones RWF who died 22nd November 1920 aged 27'

My impression is that he is buried there and not just commemorated on a family grave.

The grave also contains a sister, Lily, who died in 1891 and his parents who pased away after him namely Thomas Jones and Elizabeth M Jones of Crawia, Llanrug.

My previous notes for that parish ( incomplete)

Local newspaper report of 4/7/16 - Pte William Jones, son of T R Jones, Crawia is home on leave.

Local newspaper report of 26/9/16 - Congratulations to Pte William Thomas Jones, son of Councillor and Mrs Jones, Crawia on being promoted to Lieutenant in the RWF.

As he is not on CWGC I am assuming that he may have been discharged prior to his death.

Next visit to the Archives I will look up the newspapers for that date together with what entry there is in the parish Register.

Before I get in touch with the ever friendly staff at the local Registrar I obviously would like to gather the information that shows he was indeed in the RWF etc etc.

He is not indexed in the Dudley Ward Regimental History.

I can't positively identify him on the MIR.

My London Gazette search success rate is abysmal

Hywyn

As an aside.

Did their families have a say in whether or not the servicemen/women were commemorated.?

[Terry Denham]

Did their families have a say in whether or not the servicemen/women were commemorated.?

If you mean commemoration by CWGC, the answer is 'No'.

CWGC is obliged to commemorat ALL qualifying casualties regardless. NoK could not object.

The basis is that nobody (even relatives) has the right to deny a man his proper commemoration.

All that relatives could do if they did not want commemoration in the UK (or other home country) was to have a private grave and not erect a headstone. In these cases CWGC is obliged to commemorate the person elsewhere.

[John_Hartley]

Hywyn

At first glimpse, I agree he doesnt seem to be recorded by CWGC.

You ask if families had a choice about commemoration by the War Graves Commission and I guess the answer is "yes". If they never told officialdom of the death, then officialdom wouldnt know if it - if you see what I mean. There may be a number of reasons why it didnt happen - grief, forgot, didnt think they could after the War, etc.

That doesnt prevent a bid being made now to CWGC. You would need to obtain the death certificate. Cause of death would have to be demonstrably service related. A nosy at his file at Kew wouldnt be amiss either.

John

[Terry Denham]

John is right about CWGC having a lack of info on post-discharge men.

The anomaly in the system is that CWGC is obliged to commemorate all qualifying casualties but it has no power to decide who is a qualifying casualty (other than by date etc). That has to be decided by the MoD, the dominion equivalents and certain other bodies.

With post-discharge men, if the military were not informed, they could not pass the info to CWGC. However, most post-discharge cases with death attributable to war causes would have come to the military's attention at the time because there would have been a claim for a war pension in most cases. However, no doubt, some escaped the system.

[ypres1418]

My Nans cousin is not commemorated either and he died in 1920, am going to do some reearch to find out why etc. I know I will get help here when i get stuck.

Mandy

[Terry Denham]

Mandy

What you have to look for and PROVE is that his death was due to his service between the qualifying dates. This is not always easy.

You will need the death certificate and all other official documents you can lay your hands on. Much will depend on what these say.

[John_Hartley]

Hywyn

On the face of it, I agree that a "slipped through net" is much more likely in this case than the family taken deliberate "non-action" (if you see what i mean).

Death certificate is the only way forward.

John

[Max]

The simple fact of the matter may be that he died of something completely unrelated to his wartime activity. As Terry says, the death cert is the first port of call.

Andy

[Terry Denham]

Guys

Hold on here. You are making great assumptions.

All you know is that this man died in 1920.

You do not know if he was still serving or had left the forces. You do not know the cause of death.

These items of info are essential before you can even start thinking that it may be a non-commemoration case.

It is just as valid to make the wild assumption that he had left the military and had a row with someone and decided to end it all! There is no proof of that either.

You need facts. The DC is the starting point.

[ypres1418]

Thanks Terry, have started a thread to find out which regiment he was in when the photo was taken (he is blue's) then i can go forward with it, am looking forward to this, lots of questions as to where and when he fought etc.

Mandy

[Hywyn]

With hindsight maybe I should have posed the question re families wishes as a seperate topic.

To get back on track with Captain Jones.

I'm awaiting a DC in the post of another possible. When I get that I will speak to the Registrars Office and see what I can learn prior to purchase.

Meanwhile I am hoping that there will be Pals that can supply info that shows he was in service and with the RWF. All I have so far is that which I put in my initial post.

Hywyn

[John_Hartley]

The DC is the starting point.

That's what Andy & me said, guv.

[Hywyn]

Doesn't look as if I'm going to get Capt Jones commemorated.

His death cert states

Occupation.

No occupation.Ex Captain 5/6 RWF Drapers assistant *

Cause.

Diabetes + pneumonia 4 days.

Would still appreciate anything that is known about him though please.

Hywyn

* a bit confusing but that's what it says. I doubt whether he was a drapers assistant in the RWF