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Remembered Today:

WANTED: Royal Artillery enthusiast


michaeldr

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Strictly speaking this is not WWI, but at a stretch it may be said to be part of the aftermath of that great conflict. Be that as it may, I feel it is a particularly worthwhile subject for thought as we approach 11th November.

When I did a photographic 'Review of Ramleh' back in 2004, I got some nice comments from various Pals, including one from Staffsyeoman (Phil Mc Carty) who mentioned his father having served in Palestine and being worried to the last about whether or not his men would be forgotten. Those at Ramleh are indeed not forgotten, but like some aspects of the NHS in the UK, remembrance also has its element of the so called, post code lottery.

Following the GWF's remembering of Saddler Ahmed Abdor Rahman, I paid a visit to Haifa to see if I could learn anything more concerning his true date of death. This was not to be, but the visit did provide me with the opportunity to look around at a few of the cemeteries there; not just the Haifa Indian Cemetery, but also the Haifa War Cemetery, the German Templer Cemetery and the Haifa (Jaffa Road) Cemetery. It turns out that these four form a single block, sub-divided into unequal quarters.

Photographs of the Indian cemetery can be found where Saddler Rahman is remembered on 'Other theatres' and later I will open another thread concerning the War cemetery and that of the German Templer community, but for the moment I wish to speak of the last of the quartet; the Haifa (Jaffa Road) Cemetery. This relatively small plot measuring about 30m by 37m lies tucked away being the Indian cemetery. It does not appear on the CWGC's map and there is neither sign post nor name plate for the place. The CWGC description of it refers to their being responsible for '31 non-war burials' there.

After the neat trees, the well manicured lawns, and the clipped hedges of the War and Indian cemeteries, the contrast with the Haifa (Jaffa Road) Cemetery is very marked. There is no evidence of graffiti and there appears to have been little or no mindless vandalism. There is not even very much paper or plastic litter, beyond that which might have been blown in on the wind. But alas the place is very neglected and run down. The south-east corner contains those burials which are being looked after by the CWGC and here at least some effort has been made. The headstones here are in good repair and the plots are covered with gravel chippings which make them appear a little tidier than the rest. Elsewhere in the cemetery many headstones are broken and kerbs are askew. Pine needles and leaf litter, brown with age, cover a lot of the ground.

It made a very sorry sight and on my return home I contacted the CWGC to ask them about their responsibility for this particular cemetery. They have confirmed that, as they described on their web site, they look after only 31 of the burials here. That these are non-war burials, and that this is done under an arrangement with the Ministry of Defence in London. They confirmed for me that technically this cemetery belongs to the Anglican church of Haifa and that in the past they have contacted them about its up keep, but that the church has replied to them that they do not have any money with which to maintain it.

The CWGC told me that their arrangement with the MoD covering the non-war burials was in respect of 30 members of the Palestine Police force and 1 Royal Naval Petty Officer. There are, however, included in this better looked after group a further two R.N. burials, one Sapper of the Royal Engineers and a Major of the R.A.M.C. They lie in the midst of the Palestine Police ranks and are presumably kept tidy only by the generosity of the CWGC who must of necessity work around them. My personal thanks to the staff of the Commission would not be out of place at this point. They have been very helpful in this matter, both locally and in the U.K. After seeing some of my photographs, they have said that they are prepared to make an approach to the MoD with a view to their officially taking over the care of the other service burials in this neglected graveyard.

To return to the current condition of the memorials here: two others lie close to the above group, but unlike them they seem to have been forgotten. One is to a Chinese (?) sailor from the RFA War Sudra, whose headstone is tucked away in the north-east corner and is nearly buried by leaf litter and a nearby pile of fallen masonry. The second is to nine members of the Royal Artillery. The upper part of their memorial was made of metal and through corrosion or otherwise it has not survived in one piece, but lies broken behind the base block. The RA badge is still to be seen, as are the words "Sacred to the memory" but an attached plague has gone missing. The names of the men are recorded on a plate fixed to the base block and they are as follows:

Driver J. E. King

Driver M. Lyons

Driver W. Wilson

Driver N. Neathy

Gunner H. C. Park

Gunner E. A. Guest

Driver E. G. G. Oram

Driver F. C. Watts

Driver W. H. Johnson

The name of the seaman from the RFA War Sudra is a secret known only to those who can decipher the characters on his headstone. I also regret that I can tell you nothing further about the nine R.A. men. As non-war casualties they do not appear among the CWGC published lists, and the Royal Artillery web site has the following to say regarding its records; "For service after World War I - Records are held by the Ministry of Defence at Glasgow who will only give information to the particular serviceman or woman concerned, or to his or her next-of-kin."

When and how these men died, I do not know, but how they are remembered today is alas all too clear.

Haifa (Jaffa Road) Cemetery is truely 'some corner of a foreign field' and it would be nice to think that the whole of this little cemetery could be handed over to the expert care of the CWGC. Had these people, servicemen and civilians alike, been buried at Ramleh and not at Haifa, then their resting place would have been in quite a different state today. But the post code lottery of remembrance can be corrected and even if we cannot have that ideal out-come, then a step in the right direction can be made by the MoD agreeing to let the CWGC take over the care of the other service graves here. I hope that the Commission is able to make their approach as has been suggested. In the meantime, if any Royal Artillery enthusiast with good connections at the MoD would care to draw their attention to this, then perhaps we can help to shorten that process: Lest we forget.

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"...there's some corner of a foreign field

That is for ever England. There shall be

In that rich earth a richer dust concealed;"

In the case of Haifa (Jaffa Road) Cemetery, Rupert Brooke's words are particularly apt

for unlike its German neighbour it is indeed concealed, being without either sign or name plate

 

[edit July 2017 - following the removal of the Photobucket service I am trying to replace missing photographs in this thread

Alas, not all have been recoverable] 

Edited by michaeldr
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Two contrasting corners of Haifa (Jaffa Road) Cemetery

top: Some of the civilian burials

 

[edit July 2017 - following the removal of the Photobucket service I am trying to replace missing photographs in this thread

Alas, not all have been recoverable] 

 

bottom: Some of the service ones in the care of the CWGC. The rays of the afternoon sun illuminating the leaf-strewn plot in the foreground where the nine Royal Artillery men lie.

 

596386980c061_33A1030390.jpg.2d8ae634733fbf0e4c256f7ca7f48e77.jpg

 

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Another set of two photographs; this time contrasting between those put into the CWGC care by the MoD (top picture) and the foreground (bottom picture)

And those currently just beyond it in the background (bottom picture)

The memorial to the nine Royal Artillery men can be seen behind the 3rd headstone from the left. That of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary seaman can be seen above the 4th headstone from the left.

The headstone in the right background is another one which is not currently in the official care of the CWGC. It is to the Sapper and you will notice that the headstone has had rocks placed before and behind, perhaps in an attempt to stabilise it after it fell over at some point.

 

596387238874e_35A1030396.jpg.8cc703df5799fd55397fdf89354b18f4.jpg

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Two close-ups: the remains of the memorial to the nine Royal Artillery men is on the left

 

59638b43be2b3_101stPackBattmemremainsasatOCT2006.jpg.2803f5a27a4a85d03c6852bed8cef4c8.jpg

 

and the Royal Fleet Auxiliary sailor's headstone is on the right

 

[edit July 2017 - following the removal of the Photobucket service I am trying to replace missing photographs in this thread

Alas, not all have been recoverable] 

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Michael,

Ironically enough I have recently skipped over Whitehall from MOD to the FCO, so my direct influence is diminished. However, some suggestions for whatever good they are.

First off, if you can send me a close up of the casualty from RFA War Sudra I can get it translated. In all probability he was a 'Chinese' (in actuality Hong Kong Cantonese speaking) laundryman.

Secondly, copy your correpsondence to the Veterans Affairs agency - they have the connections to the MOD's grave unit which covers uncommemorated individuals and found remains. Make sure you underline the ongoing correspondence with the CWGC. Their addresses are on the MOD's website, and Google finds it easily enough. I cannot go into cases for reasons of propriety but we had a sympathetic hearing over uncommemorated but recorded post-WW1 casualties.

Thirdly, get hold of the Royal Artillery. Unfortunately, my direct line to the Royal Artillery Institution has since retired (I may drop a word in his ear anyway), but if you write to Mark Smith, who is both the Curator of Firepower! (the Royal Artillery Museum in Woolwich) and Regimental Secretary (Historical), Royal Regiment of Artillery, you will be taken seriously. I have known Mark for years and he will, I am sure, do what he can.

Fourth and last - keep us (or me privately) informed, please!

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Strictly speaking this is not WWI, but at a stretch it may be said to be part of the aftermath of that great conflict. Be that as it may, I feel it is a particularly worthwhile subject for thought as we approach 11th November.

The name of the seaman from the RFA War Sudra is a secret known only to those who can decipher the characters on his headstone.

You could try writing to the:

Director General

Royal Naval Supply and Transport Service

(RFA section)

They are still, I think based at Empress State Building, Theobalds road, London something (Earls Court).

They may still have records on seamen and should be able to point you in the right direction if they don't actually have them availabl.

The man was, by the way, almost certainly killed in WW2 or even afterwards (the term Royal Fleet Auxiliary didn't come into use until well after WW12, I think; the dedicated ensign didn't come into use until 1965).

He was almost certainly a merchant seaman, not RN and in the case he could have been just about any nationality (basically RFA seaman are engaged on standard merchant contracts although today there are security checks on them. Then I doubt that there was much on an ordinary seaman).

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I can't supply an up to date address, but Empress State - known and reviled uniformly as 'ESB' - to generations of 'exiled' MOD employees - is vacant. MOD wanted to demolish it - but it's listed!

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You could always write to THE GUNNER Magazine,the Journal of The R.A.

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Phil, Healdav & PBI

Many thanks for your interest here

We seem to be thinking along similar lines as some of your suggested contacts I had already e-mailed yesterday

Rest assured however that I attend to the others this morning

Phil, regarding a better copy of the Chinese inscription; I think that I may have already posted the best copy that I have

Inscriptions on the white stone here are notoriously difficult to catch particularly in the bright sunlight

I will have another check but if nothing turns up then I will attempt to make a hand copy on my next visit

[sorry that I cannot say when that will be]

Thanks again for your interest

Michael

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  • 2 weeks later...

Attached is the blow-up of the Chinese inscription on the headstone of the RFA sailor

The colour/contrast has been altered and hopefully it will be easier for someone to read

 

[edit July 2017 - following the removal of the Photobucket service I am trying to replace missing photographs in this thread

Alas, not all have been recoverable] 

 

I will be in Northumberland later this week and I hope to have the opportunity of visiting the RFA Association to see is they can lend their support to the CWGC's proposal to ask the MoD to extend their responsibility in this cemetery.

Edited by michaeldr
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Today I think it would be appropriate to bring you up to date on the subject of Haifa (Jaffa Road) Cemetery and the neglected service graves there.

Following my bringing this matter to the attention of the CWGC, they have told me that they will do their own survey there, including photographs of the service burials not covered by their current agreement with the MoD, and that following that survey, they will approach the MoD to ask "if they wish to have these graves added to the maintenance contract."

The Deputy Editor of 'The Gunner' was most helpful and has passed on the information which this thread has supplied. As a result of this I have had an exchange of e-mails with a senior officer of the RA who is intimately involved with the work of the RA's charities and trusts. He has written to say that "Sadly ...we are not in a position to do much other than make grants to help those who are restoring them. It really needs someone in country who knows the cemetery and wants to repair the memorials, even better if the CWGC wants to take on the responsibility....."

As this seemed to dovetail in with what the CWGC had told me a little earlier, I have passed on the correspondence to them (with a copy back to the RA) in the hope that these two will now be able to make a joint representation to the MoD and persuade that ministry to extend their responsibility at Haifa (Jaffa Road) Cemetery to the other service burials there and also to extend their contract with the CWGC for their repair and upkeep.

I shall do my best to keep an eye on this and will let you know of any further progress.

Thank you to everyone for their interest

Michael

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  • 2 weeks later...

As I anticipated in my post #11 above, I have recently visited Northumberland and had the opportunity of calling at the HQ of the RFA Association.

The Royal Fleet Auxiliary Association are in a relatively calm spell between two very busy years;

2005 marked the centenary of the RFA and in 2007 they will be commemorating the Falklands Campaign and their heroic part in that action 25 years ago. The chairman of the RFA Assoc., Captain Rex Cooper OBE RFA, was most helpful and he assures me that they will "do everything possible to help, and will follow up suggested leads" with regards to the Haifa (Jaffa Road) Cemetery and the RFA grave there. Captain Cooper examined the RFA's Roll of Honour with me and we think that we have identified the Chinese sailor from the RFA War Sudra as one who died in 1936/7, however I would still like to verify this with an English translation of the headstone shown above, if that is possible.

I have also recently been given contact details at the Royal Naval Association and the Royal Engineers Association and I have sent them e-mails inviting them to support the CWGC in their approach to the MoD to extend their contract at this cemetery beyond the current 31 burials, and to include all of the service graves here.

Add to the above the Royal Army Medical Corps Association to whom I have sent an e-mail today (27 Nov 06)

Thank you for your continued interest

Michael

Edited by michaeldr
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quote: Captain Cooper examined the RFA's Roll of Honour with me and we think that we have identified the Chinese sailor from the RFA War Sudra as one who died in 1936/7, however I would still like to verify this with an English translation of the headstone shown above, if that is possible.

My thanks to our forum Pals, Gregory and his son, who have translated the RFA sailor's headstone inscription for us

Quote:

Column 1, left-hand side, reading down:

?? [first character is illegible - possibly Da] Hong erected this headstone in memory

Middle column, reading down:

Shi Zheng Di, of Changle, China

Column 3, right-hand side, reading down:

Fuzhou, a friend of the same ship

We're not sure whether 'Fuzhou' refers to the ship's name, or the province of origin of the casualty. We know of a place called 'Changle' (pronounced chang-leuh, not to rhyme with 'bangle') which is in Shandong province, as we've been there. But that Changle is spelt differently in Chinese, so there may be another place of a similar name in Fuzhou.

(End of quote)

And a further clarification:

Yes, the sailor's name was Shi Zheng Di. The name on the Roll of Honour [See A Tin] is clearly a Europeanisation. The initial 'A' may be a term of endearment, the equivalent of the English -y as in Johnny, Freddy etc., quite common in Chinese names. (There are many examples of this - usually Ah - on the CWGC database.)

By the way, there's no date on the headstone.

(End of second quote)

Alas, the RFA Association Roll of Honour does not give an exact date of death either, but only indicates that it was during the years 1936/7

Many thanks again Gregory, and best regards,

Michael

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Michael.

Thank you for all the hard work you have put in on this.

These men may not have died in some major conflict but they all served this country to the best of their ability and died a long way from their home and loved ones. The least they deserve is a properly maintained grave or memorial.

Neil

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Neil,

Thanks for the encouragement. Like you, I feel strongly that those sent abroad in the country's name (for what ever reason) should not be forgotten.

I also feel that in the particular case of this little cemetery, where some graves are looked after and others are not, a mistake has been made, or possibly a simple oversight has occurred, and that this can easily be corrected. Especially as the CWGC have a full-time presence working on the two adjacent cemeteries.

I am hoping that the MoD will recognise the anomaly of this situation and speedily agree to the CWGC's suggestion that they take on the care of the additional burials.

best regards

Michael

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  • 3 months later...

I have been following-up on this

Per an e-mail received today, it seems that the CWGC have had their internal lines crossed somewhere.

However, the photographic survey which I previously understood they were to carry out last autumn,

I now understand they will be doing very shortly.

I trust that this will then allow them to put their proposal to the MoD

so that the position of those service burials at Haifa (Jaffa Road) Cemetery which are not covered by the current arrangement can be regularised in line with the rest.

In the case of the nine Royal Artillerymen this cannot come a moment too soon!

Thank you for your continued interest in this

Michael

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have taken the opportunity provided by the delay at the CWGC, to try and widen the scope of the support in this matter and I have today had an encouraging response from the Defence & Military Attaché at the British Embassy here. Unfortunately the timing is not of the best since, the watch is about to change and Colonel M. is shortly to move on. He has however sent a copy of my correspondence to his successor and he has asked him to pay a visit to Haifa (Jaffa Road) Cemetery. The colonel noted how disappointed he was to see the photographs of the headstones, memorial and the general state of the graveyard and I hope that after the visit by his successor some real progress can be made.

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  • 4 months later...

About three months ago I ran into the CWGC representative while visiting Ramleh and he confirmed for me that his survey of Haifa (Jaffa Road) Cemetery had been completed and forwarded to the UK. We are now waiting for the CWGC proposal to reach, and to be agreed to by the MoD.

In the mean time I have once again been trying to widen the base of our support in this matter. I have written to the new Defence Attaché here and to the Secretary of State in London.

The two charities who have taken an interest in this matter are those for the Royal Artillery and the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. In an effort to bolster their support, I am in contact with the MPs for the constituencies where they are based and I am pleased to report that today I have received an encouraging reply from Mr. Robert Key MP who represents Salisbury and is therefore the constituency MP for the RA charity.

Mr. Key tells me that he understands the concerns and desires of this project and that he has contacted the Minister for Veterans Affairs, Derek Twigg MP, regarding the extension of the current CWGC contract to cover the other service graves.

Progress is slow, but I feel that at last we are getting somewhere and that this anomaly can be corrected

Thank you for your continued support

Michael

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  • 1 month later...

I find myself in a 'Catch-22' situation here and I need some help. Let me explain

The headstones of the RN, RE, & RAMC men make it easy to establish their ID and who/what/when etc. but these details are missing from the RA memorial, where all that has survived is a list of nine names and ranks.

The office of Mr. Robert Key MP has very kindly passed on to me a letter received from Minister of State for the Armed Forces. His letter contains the following;

"At present, officials are looking into the issues raised by (me) and I hope to be able to send a substantive reply shortly. In the meantime, if (I) can confirm any further service details for the nine men named on the Royal Artillery memorial then we would find this extremely useful in our discussions with the Commonwealth War Graves Commission."

However, quote from post #1

"...the Royal Artillery web site has the following to say regarding its records; "For service after World War I - Records are held by the Ministry of Defence at Glasgow who will only give information to the particular serviceman or woman concerned, or to his or her next-of-kin." (my emphasis)

If anyone knows of any way in which I can get around this problem and access the records of these men then please drop me a line?

In the meantime I will also be discussing this problem with other interested parties

Regards

Michael

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quote: "In the meantime I will also be discussing this problem with other interested parties"

My special thanks are due to Kate Knowles of Gunner Publications, to Lt-Col. Ian Vere Nicoll MBE of the RA Charitable Fund and to Firepower Librarian, Paul Evans, all of whom have acted very promptly to solve this problem.

The following details of the nine artillery men at Haifa (Jaffa Road) Cemetery were supplied by Col Vere Nicol & Kate Knowles, based on research by Paul Evans:

"The Discharged D Category 2 book provides some further information: Army Number Date of Death

Driver J E King 1419548 4 February 1922

Driver M Lyons 1418270 4 February 1922

Driver W Wilson 1414279 4 February 1922

Driver N Neathy 1414164 4 February 1922

Gnr H C Park 1419616 4 February 1922

Gnr R A Guest 5096495 4 February 1922

Driver E G G Oram 1419404 4 February 1922

Driver F C Watts 1414698 4 February 1922

Driver W H Johnson 1417391 4 February 1922

With the exception of one, all of the casualties have a 14* serial number, issued in 1921 to members of the Royal Garrison Artillery. Gnr RA [Not EA] Guest carries an Infantry number as he was a transfer from the 53rd Devon Regiment. The RGA ORs Transfers In book for 1919-1921 confirms his date of death as 4th February 1922.

I also checked two entries in the 14* Serial attestation registers in which both men were listed as "Accidentally drowned in Palestine, 1st Pack Battery RGA".

1st Pack Battery RGA annual statement of services confirms that they were in Palestine and were stationed as sections in Semakh and Roshpina but does not record the loss of nine men, and makes no mention of accidents, terrorist action or flooding in the region. The drowning on leave on the same day of nine men is unlikely (Unless a boat sank) so we could surmise a bridge collapse, a landslip into a river, a vehicle tipping over or a river crossing exercise going tragically wrong. The account is very poor, six entries describing seven months service.

All of this suggests the memorial was raised by 1st Pack Battery RGA. No mention of it is made in the RA Memorials Committee Minutes or Annual Reports but it should be stressed the Committees aim was for the upkeep of RA Officers Memorials not regimental ones. Nor is there any mention of the "Incident" or subsequent memorial stone in The Gunner, RA News or RA Journal. By 1972 1st Pack Battery RA had become 2nd Junior Leaders Battery RA, a part of the Junior Leaders Regiment RA which is now in suspended animation."

This info has already been forwarded to Mr. Robert Key MP who, in turn, will pass it on the the MoD.

If any Pal has any further information on this incident involving the 1st Pack Battery RGA on 4th February 1922 then please contact me urgently

I am very grateful for all the support I have received on this project and I feel more confident now that we may expect a good outcome

regards

Michael

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quote: "1st Pack Battery RGA annual statement of services confirms that they were in Palestine and were stationed as sections in Semakh and Roshpina but does not record the loss of nine men, and makes no mention of accidents, terrorist action or flooding in the region. The drowning on leave on the same day of nine men is unlikely (Unless a boat sank) so we could surmise a bridge collapse, a landslip into a river, a vehicle tipping over or a river crossing exercise going tragically wrong. The account is very poor, six entries describing seven months service"

Thanks again to the Firepower archivist we are now able to say how the nine artillery men died;

during "..a boat exercise ... on the Jordan 4 February 1922."

But that is not all; they have also been able to find correspondence and photographs relating the erecting of the original memorial in 1934. [Note the charge made for the Imperial War Graves Commission's work here was ₤3 16s 5d]

 

596388a69afb4_71stPackBatt1934ltrrememorial.jpg.b70733ad908999f45680a97530a61bbd.jpg

 

The next photograph is of the memorial as it looked when newly erected - compare this with the base and iron skeleton remains seen in post #5 above

The plaque, which is alas missing today, can now be seen on this photograph, but very much out of focus; it appears to read

"The Men of 1st Pack Battery lost during a boat exercise at _____ on the Jordan 4 February 1922"

If anyone can read where the accident occurred then I will be very grateful for that information

596388eb3fb66_61stPackBattMem1934.jpg.85abca7eafba9261a5c54688462d899e.jpg

 

 

Once again my thanks to all at Firepower for their help on this.

Michael

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quote: Captain Cooper examined the RFA's Roll of Honour with me and we think that we have identified the Chinese sailor from the RFA War Sudra as one who died in 1936/7, however I would still like to verify this with an English translation of the headstone shown above, if that is possible.

My thanks to our forum Pals, Gregory and his son, who have translated the RFA sailor's headstone inscription for us

Quote:

Column 1, left-hand side, reading down:

?? [first character is illegible - possibly Da] Hong erected this headstone in memory

Middle column, reading down:

Shi Zheng Di, of Changle, China

Column 3, right-hand side, reading down:

Fuzhou, a friend of the same ship

We're not sure whether 'Fuzhou' refers to the ship's name, or the province of origin of the casualty. We know of a place called 'Changle' (pronounced chang-leuh, not to rhyme with 'bangle') which is in Shandong province, as we've been there. But that Changle is spelt differently in Chinese, so there may be another place of a similar name in Fuzhou.

(End of quote)

And a further clarification:

Yes, the sailor's name was Shi Zheng Di. The name on the Roll of Honour [See A Tin] is clearly a Europeanisation. The initial 'A' may be a term of endearment, the equivalent of the English -y as in Johnny, Freddy etc., quite common in Chinese names. (There are many examples of this - usually Ah - on the CWGC database.)

By the way, there's no date on the headstone.

(End of second quote)

Alas, the RFA Association Roll of Honour does not give an exact date of death either, but only indicates that it was during the years 1936/7

Many thanks again Gregory, and best regards,

Michael

Hi I have only just found this topic. Iknow you have a translation but a chinese friend had a look and has translated exactly the same but also has said this

CHINA

Chang Le he thinks this could be Shi Zeng-Di's birth place

Fu Zhou is a region that is separated by a channel from Taiwan but he also says that it means that a Committee/Association of Fu Zhou is involved with this grave

He seems to think that it is possible that Shi Zheng-Di and Da Hong were members of this Committee/Association. Possibly they could be friends or relatives but not that close.

Da Hong built this grave in memory to Shi Zeng-Di

I hope it was ok to pass this on to you

Diane

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