Salonika request

[Malcolm]

I received the following email. Can any of our pals offer info/help?

Aye

Malcolm

Perhaps you are able to give me some further special bibliographical information about the Macedonian front during 1916, especially for the city of Üskürb.

I didn’t found any book with special maps concerning the Macedonian fronts, and who were the military forces on both sides.

I am doing research in a German philosopher who was stationed at Üskürb.

Could you please help me?

Yours sincerely,

Michael

[TD60]

There are at least some maps in 'Illustration' newspaper of last part of 1918 when the front was broken in that area by Franchey d'Esperey.

I do not know if it helps ....

Regards

[Guest]

Try the book 'Under the Devil's Eye' by Alan Wakefield and Simon Moody - members of this forum. Its sub-title is 'Britain's Forgotten Army at Salonika 1915-1918.

It has photos in it and some diagrams but I can't see your place name you quoted in the index at the back of the book.

I have just found my grandad's WW1 diary, he was in the Surrey Yeomanry and was posted to Salonika. He also has some folded up maps in a box that was left behind by grandma, but I've not opened them up yet but I believe they are of Salonika but doubt they will show positions on them.

I got the book i mentioned for £8.96 plus a pound or so postage online from a company called something like BestBooks. I've yet to work through all of it but it is an excellent book and seems very thorough.

Claire

[bob lembke]

Malcolm;

Did Michael actually give you the name of the German philosopher? I know German WW I references fairly well, and have a lot of them (about 110 official histories from the Reichsarchiv, including duplicates), so I will make several observations. Is he only trying to find out maps of the town, or is he looking for mentions of him? (In other words, did his email say more than you copied?) I have never studied the campaign in Macedonia (although I have been there in 1971), but several of the official German histories do cover that fighting, and typically have some maps tucked into the book against the rear cover.

The place name, as written, is neither Macedonian nor Greek, but must be Turkish. This is odd, as although the Turks were there, I do not know of any claim or interest that the Turks have there (although they might have back then.) However, if the German soldier used that name, it is probably the name that would have been used on German military maps of that period.

Greece still considers Macedonia a lost province of Greece, and to this day create a good deal of trouble for the new state. Bulgaria also had designs on Macedonia. When I was there Macedonia celebrated its national liberation day, and all day long Bulgarian MiG jet fighters conducted deep penetrations over Macedonia, and time after time the Jugoslavs scrambled their MiGs to chase the Bulgarian MiGs out. As I remember, the Bulgarian position was: "Yes, the Macedonian language is merely a dialect of West Bulgarian, and, by the way, Macedonia belongs to us."

By the way, it is very unlikely that the soldier/philosopher would be mentioned by name in these sources that I have, probably 0.001% if he was an enlisted man, and 5-10% if he was an officer. The odds would be better if Michael knows the unit that he was posted to; possibly a regimental history (typically rather rare) might have information, especially if he was already well known as a philosopher. The histories of some German regiments, which might otherwise cost 100 Euros and be hard to find, are available on CDs for a nominal cost. I can help with this if I have some specifics.

Bob Lembke

[paul guthrie]

In Greece today they get really pissed off if you even say Macedonia and foolishly will not list directions mentioing it on the road signs, was there last year.

[domsim]

Uskub is mentioned in Martin Marix Evans’ book ‘Forgotten Battlefronts of the First World War’ published in 2003. It is now known as Skopje, familiar from more recent Balkan conflicts.

Central powers occupied it on 21 October 1915.

It was recaptured by French 1st & 4th Chasseurs d’Afrique, 6 squadrons of Moroccan Spahis and Serbian Infantry on 28 September 1918.

Cheers

Dominic

[bob lembke]

Uskub is mentioned in Martin Marix Evans’ book ‘Forgotten Battlefronts of the First World War’ published in 2003. It is now known as Skopje, familiar from more recent Balkan conflicts.

Central powers occupied it on 21 October 1915.

It was recaptured by French 1st & 4th Chasseurs d’Afrique, 6 squadrons of Moroccan Spahis and Serbian Infantry on 28 September 1918.

Cheers

Dominic

There! Dominic has hit the nail on the head! Skopje is of course the present and probably long-time capital of Makadonija (hope I have that right). During the Bulgarian air raids that I mentioned above, I and some friends were showing our defiance of the Bulgarian MiGs by dancing Macadonian folk dances on the roof of a Skopje hotel for six hours. I was wearing boots and when I took them off that night my feet were quite bloody. I was a wounded veteran of the resistance to Bulgarian aggression!

The name business is really absurd. For 15 years Greece has used its influence in various forums (not here, I hope) to force the Macedonians to have their country formally called (I kid you not): "The Country Formerly Known as the Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia". That is literally correct, aside for the word "Country" might be something else, like "Territory". That is because the Greeks consider Macedonia part of Greece, although Macedonia in 300 BC was not Greek (it ruled Greece) and Alexander the Great was not Greek, but, amazingly enough, Macedonian, although he was largely Greek in culture. To further confuse things, the present Macedonians are largely Slavic and are mostly not the same people as the Macedonians of 300 BC.

Again, welcome to the Balkans!

Malcolm, can you get more info from Michael, so I can do some look-up for him? I am fairly sure that I could find something useful, if I knew when the soldier/philosopher was in Skopje, and even possibly his name.

Bob Lembke

[bob lembke]

Malcolm;

Can you get the "soldier/philosopher"'s name? I don't want to take the effort of going thru the material without the name, as I might come across a mention of him and not recognize the man. An idea of his rank, etc. might also facilitate the search. If he was an educated man the likelihood of his being an officer would be higher, and that info to some degree would indicate looking at some different sources.

Bob Lembke

[bob lembke]

Just to keep people up to date, I have corresponded by e-mail with the person requesting help, who is editing a book of the letters of a German/Jewish philosopher who served in Macedonia in 1916. The focus of the work is not military, I believe. I have guided the editor to several volumes of German official histories that touch on his interests that I have in my library, and he is obtaining these books from his local university library. These histories include several maps that may be of interest to him. I will also look through my collection of maps of Jugoslavija (the deterius of about 18 visits) to see if they have any information for his work, as the maps in the histories are generally at too large a scale.

If anything particularily military flows from this I can keep the Pals apprised. The forum has been able to assist a serious scholar from outside our community in his research. The editor is more comfortable, I think, writing in German.

Bob Lembke

[Malcolm]

Thank you Bob,

It is all helpful to our International community.

Aye

Malcolm

[Nikolay]

Bulgaria also had designs on Macedonia. When I was there Macedonia celebrated its national liberation day, and all day long Bulgarian MiG jet fighters conducted deep penetrations over Macedonia, and time after time the Jugoslavs scrambled their MiGs to chase the Bulgarian MiGs out. As I remember, the Bulgarian position was: "Yes, the Macedonian language is merely a dialect of West Bulgarian, and, by the way, Macedonia belongs to us."

Bob Lembke

The raid story is, I would say, a joke. I don't buy that seriously, sorry.

As far as Bulgarian position on Macedonian issue (pre-ww2) is concerned, I would rather direct you to the http://www.kroraina.com/knigi/en/carnegie/index.html. You can find there an objective view on the different aspects of the issue and you can make your own mind. Now Bulgaria recognizes both the language (indeed extremely close to Bulgarian-anyone with at least basic knowledge of both languages will confirm that) and the country (Bulgaria was the first country to regognize Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name). What Bulgaria is objecting are some creative ideas by Macedonian scolars to rewrite the whole history of the region. Some time ago there was a Macedonian historian that even claimed that battle of Doiran in 1917-1918 was fought not by Bulgarian 1st Army, but by the Macedonian (?!) army. But these are problems of the history science (or in this case science fiction). Now probably both countries are closer politically and economically to each other than any other two countries in Europe.

Regards

Nikolay

[Nikolay]

I received the following email. Can any of our pals offer info/help?

Aye

Malcolm

Perhaps you are able to give me some further special bibliographical information about the Macedonian front during 1916, especially for the city of Üskürb.

I didn’t found any book with special maps concerning the Macedonian fronts, and who were the military forces on both sides.

I am doing research in a German philosopher who was stationed at Üskürb.

Could you please help me?

Yours sincerely,

Michael

Uskub is indeed the Turkish name of Skopie, the capital of the Republic of Macedonia. If the person in question was stationed in Skopie in 1916, he was probably serving in some rear unit, as it was far away from the front line.

In English you can search for Cyrill Fall's two-volume book covering British participation in Armee d'Orient, published, if I am not mistaken, in 1934 or 1935. I am yet to find it. And of course Simon and Alan's book, that was already mentioned here. Alan Palmer's "The Gardeners of Salonika" is also worth a watch.

In German try to find the regimentgeschichten of 21st, 45th and 146th Infantry regiments as well as 11th,12th and 13th Jager - battalions - these were German troops that participated in the bloody battle of the "Loop of Cerna river" in late 1916, during which outnumbered Bulgarian-German troops managed to stop Allied advance north of Bitolja.

If either of you reads Bulgarian a might recommend you some good Bulgarian sources as well.

Best wishes

Nikolay

[bob lembke]

Nikolay and you other guys;

I have exchanged about 12 e-mails with the person who asked for help. I have done this that way as the current stuff is not very military; it is more me squinting at old Jugoslav road maps and trying to find out little villages that the soldier/philosopher wrote letters from. I have found most of them. When I have done what I can I will report to you guys.

I have also referred the guy to three German official histories that I have and which touch on this period and place, and he has been able to pull them from his university library.

However, I am not very knowledgable with this theater and time (although my father was in the Balkans in 1915), so military tips, like that which Nikolay just gave, are very welcome. I do not know if the guy we are helping is following this (he is not a forumite, and his English is not great, we write in German).

Again, I will present a summary of the military aspects in a while. Nikolay is correct about his unit, he was in a flak battery protecting things like HQs and rail stations, I believe.

Nikolay;

Certainly I was viewing the events in Macedonia/Bulgaria thru Jugoslav eyes, and in fact it was only two years ago when I was able to visit Bulgaria, although I had been in "ex-Jugoslavija" about 18 or 20 times, and at one (or two or three) times I was working at the same time for both the US Department of State (and an American university) and two different Communist Jugoslav governments. Funny times!

But I did spend six hours on the roof of a Skopje hotel on the day that the Bulgarians were supposedly penetrating into Macedonia with MiGs, although our hosts could have been feeding us propaganda. But we had our own able and influential sources of information.

In those days Bulgaria was in the camp of the Big Red Bear, while Jugoslavija was communist (sort of) but independent of the Warsaw Pact. A friend was in Dubrovnik the day the Russians went into Budapest, and he told me that the next day every teenager in town was sauntering about with an automatic weapon. It was an eye-opener that the first time I touched Jugoslav soil, landing at the airport at Zagreb, seeing about 80 US-made F-86 jet fighters lined up on the runways. (They were obselecent in those days, and may have been in storage.) So relations between Jugoslavija and Warsaw Pact countries were less than perfect. I am very happy to hear that Macedonia and Bulgaria have good relations now.

I did spend a very nice afternoon in Sofia two years ago (certainly a superficial visit; I have been in "ex-Jugoslavija" about 15-18 months), and hope to return.

Bob Lembke

[bob lembke]

Guys;

I have just exchanged with the guy we are helping, and he has found almost all of the remaining place names, and the two remaining are probably, in my opinion, the same name in Macedonian and German; one is slavic, one is not, and are much the same. One has that typical Slavic place name ending "nica"; does anyone with a better handle on Slavic languages than I do know what "nica" means?

Malcolm;

Are you "cool" with all of this?

We have done a minor nice thing here; we can recall the words of Blanch DuBois, in "A Streetcar Named 'Desire' " (Tennessee Williams): "I have always relied on the kindness of strangers."

Bob Lembke

[Nikolay]

Nikolay and you other guys;

I have exchanged about 12 e-mails with the person who asked for help. I have done this that way as the current stuff is not very military; it is more me squinting at old Jugoslav road maps and trying to find out little villages that the soldier/philosopher wrote letters from. I have found most of them. When I have done what I can I will report to you guys.

I have also referred the guy to three German official histories that I have and which touch on this period and place, and he has been able to pull them from his university library.

However, I am not very knowledgable with this theater and time (although my father was in the Balkans in 1915), so military tips, like that which Nikolay just gave, are very welcome. I do not know if the guy we are helping is following this (he is not a forumite, and his English is not great, we write in German).

Again, I will present a summary of the military aspects in a while. Nikolay is correct about his unit, he was in a flak battery protecting things like HQs and rail stations, I believe.

Nikolay;

Certainly I was viewing the events in Macedonia/Bulgaria thru Jugoslav eyes, and in fact it was only two years ago when I was able to visit Bulgaria, although I had been in "ex-Jugoslavija" about 18 or 20 times, and at one (or two or three) times I was working at the same time for both the US Department of State (and an American university) and two different Communist Jugoslav governments. Funny times!

But I did spend six hours on the roof of a Skopje hotel on the day that the Bulgarians were supposedly penetrating into Macedonia with MiGs, although our hosts could have been feeding us propaganda. But we had our own able and influential sources of information.

In those days Bulgaria was in the camp of the Big Red Bear, while Jugoslavija was communist (sort of) but independent of the Warsaw Pact. A friend was in Dubrovnik the day the Russians went into Budapest, and he told me that the next day every teenager in town was sauntering about with an automatic weapon. It was an eye-opener that the first time I touched Jugoslav soil, landing at the airport at Zagreb, seeing about 80 US-made F-86 jet fighters lined up on the runways. (They were obselecent in those days, and may have been in storage.) So relations between Jugoslavija and Warsaw Pact countries were less than perfect. I am very happy to hear that Macedonia and Bulgaria have good relations now.

Bob Lembke

Bob,

I have at least 15 living family members in Macedonia plus around 150 Macedonian friends and colleagues, most of them in their 40-ies and 50-ies, I have studied the relations between Jugoslavija and Bulgaria in 1944-1991 and I have never ever met even a slightest mentioning of so serious accident, which in those times could have had extremely serious consequenses and wouldn't have passed unnoticed by the international media. In those times USSR had quite normal relations with Tito and having in mind the fact that Bulgaria was the closest ally and most loyal at that, I senserely doubt they would have embarked on such serious act. Plus at that time, Macedonian issue was a taboo in Bulgaria and Bulgarian government never even tried to raise the question internationally in order not to be reprimated by the Russians and labelled "nationalistic" by Kremle.

It is however possible, but unlikely, that a Bulgarian plane could have crossed the Jugoslav frontier for a couple of minutes, before going back, which happened quite rarely in those days due almost without exception to pilot mistakes on both sides, but - repeated crossings, "invasion" - com' on...I believe you were misled by somebody who wanted to show you a bit of Jugo-propaganda.

As for the "serious" sources US would have in the Balkans. No offence, but I generally don't esteem them very high. I remember how a senior CIA official during 1980-ies Antonov's laughable trial (the attempt on the Pope's live and the supposed "Bulgarian connection") supplied president Reagan with the information that all Bulgarians can speak Turkish freely since birth (which is the same as to presume, for example, that all English can speak French and all Spaniards - Arabic). In fact the whole charge against Antonov as the "mastermind" of the plot was based on "information" of that sort, supplied by the CIA's Eastern bloc analysts plus some freelancer journalists like the late Mrs. Clare Stirling.

As for "nica" it doesn't mean anything per se, but "-ica" is a suffix showing usually that something is "small" or "smaller". It is also used to show tenderness towards the object. Sorry, I am not much of a linquist.

Best wishes

Nikolay