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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Can't find death certificate


lionboxer

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We're stuck!! My fellow researcher and myself are now in the hands of you experts for any advice as to what we should do next. Our man came to light whilst reading our local church service register for info about the village war memorial in the churchyard. A memorial service on the 12th March 1920 was held for John H PRESTON DCM. That was all we had until we got stuck in and now know practically all about him apart from his actual date of death and cause.

Born Hellington Corner, Bergh Apton Norfolk (DoB not known yet, waiting for birth cert)

Baptised 30th March 1890 as John Harry Preston but also seen as John Henry Preston

7609 Pte J Preston H Coy 1st Norfolks 1909

Corporal awarded DCM 14th April 1915 at Barjisaya Wood Mesopotamia 2nd Norfolks LG 5th Aug 1915 also Mentioned in Dispatches

Sergeant hospitalised bronchitis 32 BGH Amara 16/11/16, Rheumatic 31 BSH Shack Saad 4/1/17, Not Yet Diagnosed War Hospital Colobar 9/2/18

Discharged June 1919

Died either last quarter 1919 or first quarter 1920

We've looked for the DC but nothing matched so tried a contact in Australia as there were family connections to no avail. Have we overlooked something? He is one of seven candidates under scrutiny for addition to our newly refurbished war memorial, and of course if it can be proved his death was war service attributed he'll be put forward to the CWGC.

Lionboxer

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Unless you have some specific info, I think you also need to check the 3rd quarter of 1919. last quarter would only cover Oct/Nov/Dec, yet you have a gap from him being discharged June.

I would also check 1919 overseas deaths register as well, just to be sure. In fact, it might be worth having a nosy at 1918 as well. The 1919 discharge year might be the mistake and it should be 1918.

Anything in local newspapers reporting the memorial service?

Dunno what else to suggest.

John

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Thanks John. The 1919 date may be a mistake but it would mean his memorial service was a long while after, but then again it depends on when he died. I did a bit of lateral thinking last night and searched for Colaba where Preston was last hospitalised. It's in Bombay and after further "googling" I found a picture of the actual building which was used as a six hundred bed hospital. I'm thinking he was seriously ill enough to be sent back from Mespot to India before he was discharged 12th June '19 while still in India and subsequently died there too. Were men discharged abroad if they wanted to? How do we access the overseas death records? We are still trawling the local press for anything and another session in the archives is on the list.

Lionboxer

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Overseas deaths register can be accessed for a couple of quid or so at 1837online.com.

But, before doing that it'll be worth you dropping a PM to Terry Denham to see if he can help on this.

Of course, if your man died overseas whislt still serving, his commemoration by CWGC is guaranteed.

I think you are right to work forward from 9/2/18 as this is the last definate date known (until the memorial service)

John

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There is no PRESTON of the Norfolks with the initials J, JH or H in the GRO Overseas Army Death Index.

However, the Overseas Index only includes men still in service at death.

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I can't see the Army discharging anyone in India who wasn't Indian-domiciled. Maybe if someone had employment lined up, but your man was obviously in no such case.

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Thankyou all. One of the Forum Pals is going to the regimental museum, hopefully he may glean something further that we can work on. A bit like a drowning man clutching at straws at the moment!! We contacted a distant relative but they had no knowledge of John Preston though his brother Isaac was a gold and diamond miner of some repute in Australia and later in Africa. I don't know if any of our medical experts on the forum would know what sort of disease Preston had that meant him being shipped out to India.

Lionboxer

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India was a pretty significant hospital area for the Mesopotamia campaign, As to his illness, could have been anything. But, seeing as it was "not yet diagnosed", perhaps not one of the common serious ailments?

John

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Yes John that's what we're wondering. Was it something nasty that hastened his demise at the youngish age of thirty. We just can't seem to get the break we need to solve this mystery.

Lionboxer

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  • 3 weeks later...

YES, YES, YES!! Found him!! After a gruelling session in the local paper's archives our man John H Preston DCM was found in the obituaries and it was as I had suspected all the time. After his discharge in June 19 he stayed in India and joined the Bombay Police force and died of pneumonia in Jan 20, maybe from being in a weakened condition after all his medical ailments. I don't know what the other people at the press office thought when they heard the whoops of joy emitting from the archive store when my fellow researcher and I finally traced him after an exhaustive and frustrating search!! Perhaps Terry Denham can advise on this, would he qualify as a war casualty as he died in uniform whilst still serving his country? I think we can probably now satisfy ourselves (local history group, Parish Council and PCC) that his name should be added to our village memorial. More research is now proceeding about his time with the Bombay Police and also to find his grave.

Lionboxer

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Lion (if I may call you that!)

The answer to this is probably - 'No'.

The Bombay Police is a 'Regiment' which appears in CWGC's list but it only has one entry - a member who died in 1944 but he does not have War Grave status. He is listed as a Non-World War Grave in CWGC Care.

The fact that his death occurred during WW2 but has not been recognised by the military as a war grave would mean that the Bombay Police Force is regarded as a civilian organisation not qualifying for war grave commemoration - at least for WW2.

However, there is a WW1 unit simply called 'Indian Police Force' in the lists. This is a title of convenience to group together Indian police who died in WW1. These have been accorded War Grave status with 68 casualties. They come from various Indian police forces across the country but there are no Europeans amongst them. They seem to have died in fighting on the NW Frontier and in Mesopotamia.

You can try to have his name recognised but I think the odds are probably against it. I can check the situation next week with this unit for WW1 if you want to take it forward.

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Terry,

Thanks for your quick response. You can call me anything you like as long as you keep helping!! Could you just check it out for me please? We've come this far so it's always worth going that little bit extra. I've done a bit of "googling" but do you know of any places we could try for further info regarding the police in India at this time? We're hoping to contact the present day Bombay (Mumbai) Police in the hope that they still have records going back then of serving officers and, the Holy Grail, a photo of Preston but I won't be holding my breath!!

Lionboxer

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Lion

It seems that he will not qualify as a member of the Bombay Police.

The usual way he would get qualification for a civilian police force in India is if he had been sent to them on attachment from a military force. This does not seem to be the case from your story.

However, you could still try as CWGC has said there is no precedent for the BPF - but it is not looking good.

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A researcher has been dispatched to the British Library India section to glean whatever and I'm awaiting further news from the Mumbai Police after my initial contact. Though highly unlikely it would be good to set a precedence with the CWGC. We'll just have to see what info turns up and keep our fingers crossed until then. Any other suggestions anyone?

Lionboxer

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  • 10 years later...

Has anyone come across anymore information on John Harry Preston.

I have been researching my wife's family tree, Her mother was married for a while to a Leyland John Harry Preston in the 1940's  Born India 1920 a policeman, His fathers name was John Harry (Henry) Preston born Norfolk 1894  fathers name Frederick (as Marriage records say) died 1920 of pneumonia in Bombay

All the records i find for him point to the 1890 birth with father Frederick, however all records i have say 1894 birth registration searched census records for UK and come up with Bergh Ampton or Loddon Both in Norfolk 1890.

anybody help

Capturejhpreston.JPG.12ffa6fd8775a4269fba8482dfbcbed2.JPG

Capturejhprestondeath.JPG.145ace5726d858e8f98617c63cff4a41.JPG

 

 

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I have looked at the images on findmypast, and the FamilySearch record for the marriage is transcribed incorrectly regarding age. The image definitely says he was aged 29 at marriage, not 24, so born c 1890.

 

He was married at St John's Church. Colaba, Bombay and was a Sergeant, 2nd Battalion, Norfolk Regiment.

 

The death record shows he was a Sergeant, B  C Police. There were a few deaths from pneumonia around the same time. I wonder whether these may have been pneumonia deaths, secondary to an influenza epidemic?

 

Cheers

Maureen

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"Thank You" Maureen for your very quick reply, the information is very useful and ties up some confusing looses ends.

 

Regards

Mark Storer.

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  • 2 months later...

I've just been alerted to the recent postings. We found out all about Jack (as he was called in the family) and he has been added to our village war memorial in Bergh Apton Norfolk. Family members attend every Remembrance Sunday service and lay poppy crosses for him. In 2014 I visited his grave in the Sewri Cemetery Bombay and placed one of those very same crosses there. Sadly there is no headstone and someone else is buried on top but it's still the final resting place of a brave Norfolk boy.

Mark Storer can you please contact me as I can put you in contact with the family. I believe Leyland and his mother Agatha visited the UK family at sometime long ago!! There are photos too.

Lionboxer

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  • 5 months later...

Just bumping this one to the top again. I've had no reply from Mark. Anyone got an idea how to contact him?

Lionboxer

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I tried messaging some time ago but no reply. I wondered if Admin may have a contact address. A shame as the family would really like to make contact.

Lionboxer

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I'm afraid that we can't help. As you know all that we keep regarding members is a username and the email address provided by the member.

If you have sent a PM then that will generate an email to the member. If he has changed his email address or ceases to check his emails then I'm afraid that there is no more to be done.

 

Keith Roberts

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  • 1 month later...

Hi 

Im so sorry everyone for disappearing as my search led me to his living  grandchildren/family my sister in laws long lost half brothers and sisters,

which was quite emotional and a shock to both families especially my sister in law who had last seen her father in 1947 sadly her father had died  in the 1990's but to have brothers and sisters that neither family knew existed , I would like to thank everyone who gave me some information which finally led to finding the family. 

Regards Mark Storer

(mstorer20@gmail.com)

i have recently come across a record on the FIBIS

image.png.1800339c033379f65bb9f00e416cbb0f.png

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There's a burial record on FindMyPast from the India Office collections, listed as Jack Preston, but viewing the image states "Sergeant in B C Police" and death date is again 9 January 1920, buried 10 January. Cause of death, pneumonia. Buried by (Revd) J Bilby[?], post chaplain in Sewree Cemetery. See https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=BL/BIND/D/418572

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