CWGC Cemetery Registers

[auchonvillerssomme]

Thats interesting Andy, so maybe those older ones that seem to have some safe provenance aren't so safe at all.

Mick

[Paul Johnson]

This really is an age old problem and there have been many posts about this before.

Sadly, it's a combination of factors including souvenir hunters, thieves, local louts and even political activists that are responsible. Because of the isolated location of many of the cemeteries it is virtually impossible to prevent the theft or destruction of registers and visitors books. All you can do, if you discover this, is to report it to the CWGC. I have always found them to be most helpful and the Registers are usually replaced as quickly as possible.

In another post I reported how I had encountered some local Belgian youths who I found entering a cemetery where I had just found the Register completely torn up and strewn around the entrance porch. They pretended that did not understand me but it was clear from their faces that they knew exactly what I was talking about when I tried to question them about the damage. It's very annoying but you can't do much about it I'm afraid.

To assist those who would like to know what the Registers are all about I have attached some copies of the two different types that may be found.

I hope it is of use.

Regards

Paul J.

[Paul Johnson]

This is the content of the registers.

Regards

Paul J.

[Paul Reed]

As said in this thread before, this is nothing new.

I have just been reading some old Rifle Brigade Journals where they have made trips to the battlefields and a recurring theme in these is that:-

"Unfortunately in every cemetery visited, the book containing the details of those buried in it was missing, so the Battalions of the men concerned could not be traced, as this information is not given on the headstones."

Rifle Brigade Association Journal, December 1947.

Andy

Given the date, I suspect this was a legacy of WW2. It took IWGC several years after WW2 to make things good again, plus they had new work from the latest conflict of course.

[healdav]

The French are now removing the registers from their cemeteries and making them available in the local mairie (during opening hours).

And all that is in the French registers is literally that; a list of names and graves.

The problem with French records is that their on-line registers have a lot of graves missing and even when they have the grave registered the on-line register can be wrong.

[Porteous]

I have just seen one of the modern blue registers (for Branheok New cemetery) advertised on e-bay (Item 310156982887 ). I have passed an e-mail to CWGC, but hesitate to approach e-bay until I am sure it cannot have been honestly come by. Grateful for input from those that know!

[Nigel Marshall]

Isn't there an entry in the registers that are placed in cemeteries and at memorials stating that this particular copy is for use only at the site where it is placed and if it is found elsewhere it is illegally held?

Certainly there was in some I saw about 18 - 20 years ago on the Somme.

Any carrying this entry and not being where they should be should stand out a mile.... not that an ebay seller will highlight this.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Terry Denham]

Anyone can buy a computer produced register from CWGC.

[Nigel Marshall]

That's the trouble though Terry, some people don't like that word 'buy'.

Cheers,

Nigel

[nadend]

Hi,

I read earlier in this thread that bronze swords of the cross of sacrifice were being stolen. Some may know that a bronze memorial plaque at Sheffield Park was stolen a couple of years ago. Anything bronze is stolen these days, e.g. the very heavy Pozieres Memorial Gates a few years ago.

Last week I was at Cojeul British Cemetery in France, and somebody had nicked the large stainless steel plaque describing the WW1 military operations in the area. Even screwing things down with security screws, using relatively low value materials etc. does not stop the thieving b*$!*%@s (please excuse my language).

In my opinion, the only solution is to not create a market in the first place, i.e. don't buy anything unless you know exactly where it came from. Even then, the thieves will spot there is a market for such things, and will do their worst. I know it it may be very controversial to say this, but will the headstones of the famous be next, for example, the headstones of poets like Wilfred Owen?

Dave

[peterhogg]

I would really love to know what sort of person steals these bronze or metal fixtures. I mean the theft requires a degree of deliberation and effort and sufficient time for the thief to notice the gravestones all around him/her. Would there not be even a moment of self-reflection? Without any arrests my question is rhetorical but I find the idea of it so reprehensible and so very depressing.

[Michael Johnson]

The problem with French records is that their on-line registers have a lot of graves missing and even when they have the grave registered the on-line register can be wrong.

The reason for this is that the French government allowed families to claim the bodies for reburial. If they are buried in a Veterans section of a cemetery they may be on Memorial Genweb. If they are in a family plot you may never find them. I can't find my mother's cousin, although I have a photo of his original grave.

[chloeflorence]

Didn't think you had casted an aspertion, by the way what do you do with a mangel wurzel, Ive never seen them on the vegetable shelves in M&S.

Mick

Referring back to this earlier quote. Plum & Apple jam was included in Army rations in WW1 when you could get it, & it was the rottenest & most inferior jam ever produced. There was a farm near Cambridge which grew a special kind of mangel-wurzel, which went to the jam factory. This was presumably to provide some substance, sugar and substitute for the fruit. Apparently leather off-cuts from tanneries were also sent to the jam factory, presumably to be boiled up to provide some necessary ingredient.

Hope this is of interest, Jim

[jdajd]

To be honest i don't think there are many who rely on the books to identify a resting place. But they are invaluable when walking round cemeteries to build a picture of the men sharing the cemetery with 'your man' or just browsing.

Mick

I do not think I would have found Lt Talbot's grave in Sanctuary Wood without the registry since it was not in a regular row and facing the "wrong" direction.

Jon

[dycer]

Presumably the original Registers were first compiled to allow Family members,visiting a Cemetery/Memorial to find or be near a loved one and to record their feeling of loss.

As the Registers are and were made of paper,clearly they will/would wear out.

The Registers themselves are updated, on reprint, to correct previous errors in their compilation.For example I visited Arras Memorial 10 years ago and noted that the Register,recorded the incorrect year of death for my relative.The CWGC agreed and promised to insert the correct details on the next Register reprint.

If people wish to steal Registers and sell them for a profit,well both the seller and buyers are sad people.

The Registers were designed for a purpose in the 1920's, the fact that we view them in the 21st Century,either for profit or for historic research purposes misses the whole point of their original purpose.

George

[auchonvillerssomme]

Presumably the original Registers were first compiled to allow Family members,visiting a Cemetery/Memorial to find or be near a loved one and to record their feeling of loss.

As the Registers are and were made of paper,clearly they will/would wear out.

The Registers themselves are updated, on reprint, to correct previous errors in their compilation.For example I visited Arras Memorial 10 years ago and noted that the Register,recorded the incorrect year of death for my relative.The CWGC agreed and promised to insert the correct details on the next Register reprint.

If people wish to steal Registers and sell them for a profit,well both the seller and buyers are sad people.

The Registers were designed for a purpose in the 1920's, the fact that we view them in the 21st Century,either for profit or for historic research purposes misses the whole point of their original purpose.

George

I buy IWGC/CWGC Registers, I have a lovely collection and I don't think I'm sad - in fact i'm generally very happy. I wouldn't buy one that I suspect has been stolen and I've never seen any recent ones for sale so I don't know who steals them and sells them for profit.

I presume that everyone posting on here does know that you have always been able to purchase the registers, so don't assume that all those for sale are nicked. In fact a couple of years ago the CWGC sold all of their stock and i was lucky enoough to get hold af a lot including the complete Menin Gate and Thiepval registers.

There is something that CWGC could do and that is put on display a cemetery plan in each cemetery.

Mick

[Terry Denham]

Dycer

The Registers were not primarily produced in the 1920s/30s to place in cemeteries.

They were produced to sell to the next of kin as a momento of their loved one as most relatives would never have been able to visit the grave. Each casualty's relatives were sent an Order Form for copies of the Register when they were sent a proof copy of the relevant entry for checking. CWGC sold tens of thousands of copies of the Registers between the wars.

Keeping a copy of the register at the cemetery was a secondary, though important, function for them.

Stolen registers are rarely, if ever, put up for sale as they are easily detected. Any that are stolen are for personal use by the miscreant.

[habspei31]

I buy IWGC/CWGC Registers, I have a lovely collection and I don't think I'm sad - in fact i'm generally very happy. I wouldn't buy one that I suspect has been stolen and I've never seen any recent ones for sale so I don't know who steals them and sells them for profit.

I presume that everyone posting on here does know that you have always been able to purchase the registers, so don't assume that all those for sale are nicked. In fact a couple of years ago the CWGC sold all of their stock and i was lucky enoough to get hold af a lot including the complete Menin Gate and Thiepval registers.

There is something that CWGC could do and that is put on display a cemetery plan in each cemetery.

Mick

Only problem with that idea, Mick, is someone is liable to steal the plan! If they can stoop so low as to 1) steal the registers; 2) steal the plaques detailing the battle; 3) videotape themselves fornicating on the Vimy Memorial and posting it to a video-share site....well, anything is possible.

Chris