alliekiwi Posted 26 October , 2006 Share Posted 26 October , 2006 Over the weekend just past I was in Hawkes Bay (New Zealand) at a cemetery in the wee town of Waipukurau, and saw the following headstone. It's not a CWGC one, as the chap in question died well after the war, but it's in the WW1 veterens section of the cemetery. The Central Hawkes Bay District Council who have their cemetery records online have no other information than: Family name GRAHAM Age Given names W Date deceased 25/02/1954 Address Interment date Cemetery WAIPUKURAU Plot 107 Block 1ST W W Grave/Ashes Grave Depth Standard Depth I vaguely wondered if perhaps he was a New Zealander serving in the Canadian forces? Of course, it also could be a Canadian who emigrated here... Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 26 October , 2006 Share Posted 26 October , 2006 alliekiwi G'day mate That one got me scratching my head. That regimental number belongs to: 75075 Pte THOMAS EDWARD LAWRANCE, DOB 12/12/1893, who signed up for the 29th Battalion on 7 November 1914. So one thing we know for sure - the regimental number is incorrect or the fellow was not a WW1 vet. Taking a further look, there are a number of William Grahams but none with a service number that even remotely resembles this fellow or a DOB that matches the age. There are 3 William Grahams born in 1876 and none in 1877. Since the Canuk govt ponied up with the funds, he must have been a Canuk, not a Kiwi. He is not a Boer War vet. The only thing I can think of is that he was in the services before WW1 with that number or post WW1 having a tour of Russia or Germany as part of the occupation troops. This could be his last service number which then could mean that he might have served during WW1, been demobbed and then rejoined and allocated that number under which he was buried. So there is a greater mystery here than first presented itself. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 26 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2006 *blink* Well, so far two of the three random headstone photos I took have turned out to be of more interest than a random 'oh, who is this chap - let's have a look-see'! One mystery Canadian, and a bigamist - not a bad day's photography. Thanks for that, Bill! Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 26 October , 2006 Share Posted 26 October , 2006 That number is a NZ number Archway title years GRAHAM, William - WW1 75075 - Army 1914 - 1918 agency series accession box / item record part alternative no. AABK 18805 W5539 42 0046676 Possibly he transferred from the Canadian army You would have to check his file to find out. ..................................... There was a William Graham, bricklayer of Waipawa, who died in 1954. His probate was filed at Napier Court 25 March 1954. The records are now at Archives NZ Wellington, reference no AAOW W3846 6941/54 Waipawa is close to Waipukurau. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 26 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2006 Thanks, Christine. If only those files weren't $25 each - I'd love to check out the Canadian Connection. I went through Waipawa, actually. Had to stop there at a petrol station in order to find out how to put my Holden rental car into reverse. *blush* Turned out to be some strange ring thing you had to lift on the gear stick to then put it across into R. I felt such an idiot. Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 26 October , 2006 Share Posted 26 October , 2006 Hi Bill, Given Christine's post above, the plot thickens (NZEF number on a headstone with Canadian Forces and a Maple Leaf emblem). Christine has provided the accession number to the NZEF records of 75075 W Graham. A few thoughts come to mind - just long shots. People do get details mixed up, relatives could have mixed up the NZEF number with the Canadian service - although one would have thought his full Canadian details, including number, would have been needed for the Canadians to fund the headstone and burial - if they actually did. Given he died aged 77 years and there are 3 W Grahams born in 1976 might he not be one of them - only one year's difference? People do get ages wrong. We all thought my Grandmather died aged 90, according how old she said she was, but her birth certificate showed she was 89. Could he have enlisted in the Canadian Forces and then transferred to the NZEF - hardly likely but not impossible. Re your comment on Russian service: I recall the Russian service in 1919 was undertaken by enlisting in, I think, the 45th Bn Royal Fusiliers, at least it was for the Australians who volunteered. I am not sure the Canadians or New Zealanders sent a CEF or an NZEF contingent to Russia as such - probably volunteers under the same scheme as our fellows. Did the NZEF provide occupation forces in Germany after the war? What are the details of the 3 W Grahams born in 1876 or can you point us to the site you found them on? One of them may provide a lead. Look forward to catching up tomorrow, we can tussle with the possibilities then. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 26 October , 2006 Share Posted 26 October , 2006 W Graham is not mentioned on the Waipawa War Memorial http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/war/memorial-Waipawa but it is not clear whether the memorial is for all who took part, or only those who died. Presumably he went to Waipawa after the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 26 October , 2006 Share Posted 26 October , 2006 Mates I suspect he never served overseas. The below is from the embarkation records: 75074 Pte KERSE, Arthur James, Waikaka, New Zealand Expeditionary Force, 5th Reinforcements, Otago Infantry Battalion 75076 Pte BARRIS, William These are the immediate numbers before and after 75075 from NZ but you will notice that 75075 is absent. That means no embarkation. Still a mystery as to why the Canuks would pony up with the readies to pay for a headstone and burial. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearpaw Posted 26 October , 2006 Share Posted 26 October , 2006 How do you know that the Canadian Government paid for the headstone/burial? The headstone is not a CWWG stone but is a very similar design, so it could have been done by the family. Canada did send an expeditionary force to Russia, the CSEF. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 26 October , 2006 Share Posted 26 October , 2006 How do you know that the Canadian Government paid for the headstone/burial? The headstone is not a CWWG stone but is a very similar design, so it could have been done by the family. Canada did send an expeditionary force to Russia, the CSEF. Bill its the same design as the other military grave in the background Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 26 October , 2006 Share Posted 26 October , 2006 The stone could have been provided by the family or by the Returned Servicemen's Association. Either way it could have been styled to match CWGC stones. It is too late to be a CWGC Stone, and the other stone could be the same. CWGC stones are usually together, but other military stones would be close by. if they are in a dedicated military section of the graveyard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 26 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2006 Yes, it's the WW1 veterens part of the cemetery. As they are in that section, they tend to have military-style stones. But there are several different stone types in that same cemetery. My great uncle's stone, in the same WW1 section, has a brass plaque on it. I"ll upload a photo of it below (which shows some white headstones beyond, but they are not part of the WW1 section) Back prior to at least late 1962, the rules were that if you wanted to be buried in the RSA sections (Returned Services Association), your wife could not be buried there, too. I'm guessing that was also to maintain the military 'feel'. Now they have changed that rule, at least in some cemeteries, so you sometimes see a smaller plaque near the ground, with the wife's details on. Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 27 October , 2006 Share Posted 27 October , 2006 bearpaw G'day mate You asked: How do you know that the Canadian Government paid for the headstone/burial? Fair question mate. I jumped through a whole lot of logical steps to come to that conclusion but all are based upon what I know of and understand from bureaucracy. The use of the maple leaf and the word "Canadian" is the starting point. When the person died, the RSA would have applied for funding for his funeral on behalf of the family. Since the RSA at no time ponied up with the pounds but actually received a grant from the Enzed govt to cover a set expense, this would have triggered off a whole circle of paperwork. When the RSA made its grant application, it would have lodged all the relevant detail regarding the soldier. A matching clerk in the Enzed Govt would have sourced the details of the man's service, verified by the Defence bureaucracy, to the eligibility criteria set out in the legislation to see if the public purse could be tickled for the expense. Since no silver fern appears - the mandatory Enzed logo - one can safely assume the clerk passed the equiry onto the Canuk High Commission in Wellington saying - if you say you will cover the expense, we will initially fund it on loan as part of an agreement between our countries. The HC would have cabled to Ontario and received an agreement as a trace was found in their Defence bureaucracy of service by this individual. So if the Canuks agreed to fund, they would have demanded the Maple Leaf to be placed on the headstone ensuring that anyone seeing it would know who funded it. This would have begun a further paperwork stoush whose ending we care not for the headstone exists with a maple leaf on it indicating that the Canuks covered the expense as per their international obligations. On all these things, so long as you follow the paper trail, all will be good. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Nelson Posted 27 October , 2006 Share Posted 27 October , 2006 Mates I suspect he never served overseas. The below is from the embarkation records: 75074 Pte KERSE, Arthur James, Waikaka, New Zealand Expeditionary Force, 5th Reinforcements, Otago Infantry Battalion 75076 Pte BARRIS, William These are the immediate numbers before and after 75075 from NZ but you will notice that 75075 is absent. That means no embarkation. Cheers Bill Hi Bill, Would just like to question your source in regards to the reinforcement details. I can confirm that men of the NZEF with regimental numbers beginning with 750-- would not have been in the 5th reinforecments to the NZEF. The 5th reinforcements left NZ on the 13th of June 1915, they all had the early format of regimental numbers which was a bar format eg 10/1098, the 10/ signified the Battalion, in this example the 10/ stood for Wellington Battalion. Then the servicemans number. Men with Regimental numbers 750-- would have been much later in the war. my pick without clarifying further would be mid to late 1918. There are some NZEF casualties listed in October and November of 1918 of men with 750-- regimental numbers, so they did serve, very late in the war. Trust that makes sense. regards Aaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 27 October , 2006 Share Posted 27 October , 2006 Aaron G'day mate Hate it when people point out that I might have a problem with my database. I have a corrupted file and on checking the primary information, this is what I come up with: 8/2030 KERSE, Arthur James Waikaka New Zealand Expeditionary Force, 5th Reinforcements, Otago Infantry Battalion Now look at what you force me to do - re-examine my database because I think there may be an error that is giving me bad output. However, let me say that I do appreciate your comments - they have led to this discovery and for that I am grateful. Only peeved at what I have done to force the error. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 27 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 27 October , 2006 (edited) I tried to contact the RSA today to find out who finances headstones of veterens in the case of death many years after the conflict in question, and not of war related causes. And if this varies if the man served in the armed forces of another country. No luck, just a whole lot of answer phones. I think I'll try emailing, but of course cannot expect an answer over the weekend! I have a feeling that, despite the fact the men in question are interred in the veterens section of the cemetery, the families are the ones who foot the bill for the headstone, with perhaps a few guidelines from the RSA about layout/wording etc. I'm quite happy to be proved wrong on this, though. Allie Edited 27 October , 2006 by alliekiwi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 27 October , 2006 Share Posted 27 October , 2006 As an aside to this discussion.... The NZ government does not follow the CWGC dates for the recognition of war graves. All men who subsequently died due to war service are recognised by them (ie those who died after 31.08.21 and 31.12.47). They provide stones similiar to the official CWGC ones in these cases. Most of the graves in this category are in NZ but there are a handful in the UK. However, that does not seem to apply in this case as this gentleman seems to have died of non-war causes in old age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Nelson Posted 27 October , 2006 Share Posted 27 October , 2006 Aaron G'day mate Hate it when people point out that I might have a problem with my database. I have a corrupted file and on checking the primary information, this is what I come up with: 8/2030 KERSE, Arthur James Waikaka New Zealand Expeditionary Force, 5th Reinforcements, Otago Infantry Battalion Now look at what you force me to do - re-examine my database because I think there may be an error that is giving me bad output. However, let me say that I do appreciate your comments - they have led to this discovery and for that I am grateful. Only peeved at what I have done to force the error. Cheers Bill Hi Bill, How frustrating for you, youve obviously done a lot of work in putting together a database, then something corrupts it!!! The primary info is correct. Allie, I m in the Library next week. if I can find anything out about your man ILL post it here for you. Im thinking he left NZ July to September of 1918. regards Aaron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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