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mgbarrett1

2nd KIH kilkenny 1917

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mgbarrett1

Need some help to identify the unit involved I think the 2nd Kings irish hussars but can find no mention of them any one help the photo was taken in Kilkenny Barracks in 1917

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Sean.

Hello Hugh,

This is the photo that Martin is talking about, would you or some of the other forum members have info on the unit. I have five photos so I will try and upload some others as well.

Regards,

Sean.

post-8617-1166195328.jpg

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Sean.

Second photo.

Sean

post-8617-1166195460.jpg

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Sean.

Thanks Hugh,

Responded quicker then I can Type.

Regards,

Sean

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Armoured Farmer

Sean,

This is the KEH badge.

post-8494-1166196235.jpg

H

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Sean.

Many thanks Hugh, I will try and get some more information as to the regiments time in Kilkenny. Can you make out the second name in the second photo and is the first Lt Pigg?.

Regards,

Sean

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Armoured Farmer

Sean, it certainly looks like Pigg, and the other seems to be Capt Mac, although the first letter may not be an M.

Hugh

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kildaremark

"Pigg" has a full stop after it so presumably "Piggott" - there is an Lt Arthur Vincent Piggott in the King Edward's horse in the Medal Cards.

Officers beginning with Mac are Capt Donald MacKinnion and Major John Norman MacDonald - could be one of these?

Mark

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Armoured Farmer

Mark,

Looks good to me. Well done spotting the full stop!

I'll check the Monthly Army Lists when I get a chance.

Hugh

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Sean.

Thanks Mark and Hugh,

It jumps out at you off the photo when you know what you are looking at.

Many Thanks,

Sean.

ps

Would the different Cap Badge and Tunic collar of Cpt Mac indicate anything in particular.

Sean.

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Steven Broomfield

I'd say Capt Mac is a Staff Officer - he has gorget tabs and a coloured cap band. The badge, I thought, was Grenadier Guards, but he has cuff rank badges, so he's not a guardee. I assume, therefore, he's a Fusilier of some stripe, but which I know not.

The badge shape would discount Lancashire Fusiliers, but I really can't offer more. Maybe an Irish Fusilier regiment (Dublin, Munster, R Irish, R Inniskilling)?

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Sean.

Thank you all for your help in identifying the regiment and indeed some of the men, if anything else comes to mind please post. I will post the last two photos in the off chance they may be of help to forum members in their own research.

If I can be of any help to forum members in obtaining information from the far south of this fair island please let me know.

Kind regards,

Sean.

post-8617-1166228408.jpg

post-8617-1166228486.jpg

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mgbarrett1

HI hugh

Found a piece from one of the guys in work Which mentioned the King Edwards horse so it look like you were right. cannot find much more on them anymore info would be great all i have is the date they were here 1917 and that was on the Photo

Martin

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NRB62

Gents,

Having spent the past 13+ years on a biographical compendium of County Kilkenny folk who served in the Great War (now at over 2,400 names), I can suggest with some confidence that the ‘Capt Mac.’ in your second photo of officers at Kilkenny Barracks in 1917 is Captain Joseph P.T. Mackesy, of 5th Bn RMF. He had been recruiting officer for Waterford District from at least Sep 1913 thru Apr 1914, and took over duties as recruiting officer for Kilkenny District (in Kilkenny Barracks) as of at least late Aug 1914, and remained there until invalided out of the Army, 5/3/1918, due to ill-health and granted rank as honorary Major. He was from Carmel, Tramore, Co. Waterford, but the family owned over 1000 acres in South Kilkenny, and Joseph was an alumnus of Kilkenny College. Father - Dr. G.I. Mackesy, JP, of Lady Lane, Waterford (d. Sep 1917).

SOURCES: Kilkenny Journal 9/3/1918; Irish Times 17/10/1916, p. 6; Kilkenny Moderator 13/3 & 15/9/1915, 2/9/1916, 25/11/1916 (Kilkenny College Roll of Honour), 8/9/1917, 9/3 & 22/5/1918; MAL Jan 1915; LG 4/10/1915; Kilkenny People 9/10 & 20/11/1915; countless soldiers' attestation papers, 1914-19 (WO 364 & 363 series).

I’m afraid I can’t help with ‘Lt Pigg.’, or any of the other men in the photos, for although I have data on several 2nd KEH officers, I’ve not come across any photos of them. However, I would suspect that the fellow at front centre of your first photo is Brevet Colonel Harry Newman Morgan Thoyts (often misspelled as Thoytes), late 8th Hussars, who assumed command of the reserve squadron, 2nd KEH (and simultaneously OC of Kilkenny Barracks), 17/3/1917. He was still in command at Kilkenny when the Lord Lieutenant, Sir John French, visited Kilkenny, 18-20/1/1919; he's noteworthy for being the 2nd most senior member on the sensationalized court martial of Capt J.C. Bowen-Colthurst in Jun 1916 for the muder of Francis Sheehy Skeffington & two others during the Easter Rebellion; father - Colonel Newman Burfoot Thoyts (d. 20/9/1918), The Mythe Hse, Tewkesbury, Glocs; his brother - Major Francis Gordon Grant Thoyts, 1st Bn, SLI, DOW as a German POW, 26/8/1914.

SOURCES: Kilkenny Moderator 14 & 18/7/1917; MALs Jan 1915 & Nov 1918; James, E.A. (1993), pp 14-16; ODGW (bro's entry); CWGC (bro's entry); LG 10/12/1918; www.tewkesburyabbey.org.uk; Sinn Fein Rebellion Handbook, p. 108; Kilkenny People 25/1/1919; WO 372.

2nd KEH had something of a convoluted war history, and as Lt-Col L. James notes in his History of King Edward's Horse (1921), p. 73: 2nd KEH filched the name, and were officially baptised as the 'second regiment', although there was not as much as a silken hair in the connection between the two regiments.

Cheers,

Niall

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corisande

Martin

Piggott is closer to home than you probably imagine. I have no idea why he joined KEH, he was an Englishman from London, and returned to London, but in meantime got the MC and then joined ADRIC !

For my notes on A V Piggott click here

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Guest SusMar

My ancestor was the Harry Newman Morgan Thoyts mentioned in the correspondence. Would it be possible for me to have a sight of the photograph under discussion?

Susan Humphrey (nee Thoyts)

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