IanA Posted 22 October , 2006 Share Posted 22 October , 2006 I have just finished reading "The Story of the Unknown Warrior" by Michael Gavaghan and was astonished by one aspect of the selection process which I had not heard of before. Apparently, four bodies were chosen and placed, covered, in a Nissen hut where one was selected, at random, by Brigadier-General Wyatt. So far so good, but what I find near incredible is that the rejected bodies were re-buried in a shell hole on the Albert road! They may, or may not, have been subsequently rediscovered and given a proper burial. I am finding it difficult to imagine the mind-set which prepares to elevate some poor soul to the status of national hero and symbol of a nation's mourning while throwing away the three who so nearly made it! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Linham Posted 23 October , 2006 Share Posted 23 October , 2006 Ian, I suppose it's a matter of who and what you believe. Also on same page that you have picked upon Gavaghan states that according to Brigadier - General Wyatt the bodies were removed to the military cemetary at St Pol and reburied. I know which I prefer to believe. Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 23 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2006 Hi Malcolm, I do see this, but why would Sir Cecil Smith make up a story which reflects discreditably upon his group? Gavaghan expresses his doubts about Wyatt's story but does not elaborate. I wonder whether any other references to this episode exist? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Linham Posted 23 October , 2006 Share Posted 23 October , 2006 Ian, Its interesting that you question whether thier are any other references , as soon as I saw your first post I went to my collection of After the Battle magazines ( normally associated with WW2 ). In one of thier early editions they ran an article on the Unknown Warrior which has some vey good photographs of the event - the editor alleges to have interviewed some of those closely connected to the event ans suggests that only three bodies were ever involved not four. Unfortunately he does not identify his sources. Do you know where Sir Cecil Smith fits within the picture. Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 23 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2006 I know very little of the whole affair. A quick 'Google' suggests that he was in charge of the V & A museum and perhaps a major-general but the short answer is 'I don't know'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 23 October , 2006 Share Posted 23 October , 2006 I re checked the differing accounts on this,and the Books and Articles i possess all concur that the other Bodies were reburied on St.Pol which at the time was a mass of old trenches and Shell Holes.After the Battle Magazine did an extensive article on The Unknown Warrior.To ensure that the body was unknown,the military authorities exhumed 6 unidentified Soldiers,they mave have also have been Sailors in the RND or an Airman.On 9th Nov 1920 6 working parties commanded each by a subaltern,went to the 6 main Battlefields.Aisne,Arras,Cambrai,Marne,Somme and Ypres - each to exhume the remains of one Soldier buried in a Grave and marked as unknown.The 6 bodies were the transported in Coffins to a Hut in Ypres where they were met by the Rev George Kendall.A blindfold Officer went into the Hut and randomly touched the Coffin of the Soldier to be buried at Westminster Abbey.An account in COURAGE REMEMBERED also mentions 6 Bodies.However Neil Hansons Book THE UNKNOWN SOLDIER mentions only 4 Exhumations,and the Bodies were not taken to Ypres but St.Pol,which seems far more likely as Brigadier Wyatt was based there,and the scenario of the Shell Hole Burials of the Unselected Bodies seems more realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 23 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2006 6 bodies??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 23 October , 2006 Share Posted 23 October , 2006 Yes 6, as i am trawling through some Books,there seems to be 2 differing accounts of what actually occurred,i would tend to go with Neil Hansons version of events,as He relly seems to have done His Homework on this subject.I would really like to have another look at the AFTER THE BATTLE version,as they are very thorough and accurate in their articles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 24 October , 2006 Share Posted 24 October , 2006 I am sure I have an article somewhere about the subject and it certainly didnt mention a 'shell hole' I will do some searching. The French Unknown Warrior was chosen from 8, by Pte Auguste Tain 234th Infantry Regt. The 7 remaining now rest in the Ossuary at Douaumont. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 24 October , 2006 Share Posted 24 October , 2006 Reading between the lines,as previously mentioned St.Pol had been the Scene of Heavy Fighting and the whole area was devestated.There was a Military and communal Cemetery in existence,so why bury the unselected Men in a Shell Hole ?,when there were a Couple of cemeterys available,this thought has been Nagging at me.Also which Cemetery at St.Pol would have been used as we have the following. 1).St.Pol British Cemetery.St.Pol Sur Ternoise. 2)St.Pol Communal Cemetery Extension. Maybe CWWGC would have some details of Burials after 1919,when both these Cemeterys were no longer being used ?.As an update i have just checked Burial Details for both Cemeterys and no unknowns seem buried in Either.The mystery grows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 24 October , 2006 Share Posted 24 October , 2006 may, or may not, have been subsequently rediscovered and given a proper burial. There were and are. Good guess is Bapaume Post Mil. Cem. Please see http://www.xs4all.nl/~aur/Oddsandends/myth2.htm Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 24 October , 2006 Share Posted 24 October , 2006 The 7 remaining now rest in the Ossuary at Douaumont. No they do not: http://www.xs4all.nl/~aur/Cemeteries/F_Faubourg-Pave.htm No wonder Wikipedia contains so many mistakes Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 24 October , 2006 Share Posted 24 October , 2006 Excellent Article Marco,thankyou for pointing me in the right direction.So it is practically certain that the unknown 3 are at Bapaume Post.Thanks again for shedding Light on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 24 October , 2006 Share Posted 24 October , 2006 There is just so much info out there. It always surprises me for such a short period of time 14-18 there is so much to learn Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 24 October , 2006 Share Posted 24 October , 2006 Excellent Article Marco,thankyou for pointing me in the right direction Hello PBI, You're welcome. I trust you know I didn't put this on my website because of your statements. I'm pretty sure I typed this out once before for this forum, it's one of those things that come by now-and-again. As member # 15 I've 'seen' certain things before Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
healdav Posted 24 October , 2006 Share Posted 24 October , 2006 A book came out a few years ago which claimed to be the definitive story of the Unknown Warrior. Sorr I donùt remember the name offhand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 24 October , 2006 Share Posted 24 October , 2006 Hello PBI, You're welcome. I trust you know I didn't put this on my website because of your statements. I'm pretty sure I typed this out once before for this forum, it's one of those things that come by now-and-again. As member # 15 I've 'seen' certain things before Regards, Marco Hi Marco,no i didnt think anything of the Sort,i am just really glad that you have this information,and are able to pass it on,as you say it must be one of those subjects that will keep on occurring as more new Forum Members come on Board.Thanks again.PBI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potter Posted 24 October , 2006 Share Posted 24 October , 2006 I can't tremember where I saw this but one account claimed the random choice by Wyatt was fixed and he knew which remains belonged to a regular from 1914 and chose that one. Wyatt's own account, published in 1939 said that four sets of remains from the Aisne, Somme, Arras and Ypres were placed in the chapel at St Pol, on stretchers, covered in the Union Jack. "I selected one, and with the assistance of Colonel Gell, placed it in the shell (of the coffin); we screwed down the lid. The other bodies were removed and reburied in the miiltary cemetery outside my headquarters at St Pol. I had no idea even of the area from which the body I selected had come from; no on else can know it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 24 October , 2006 Share Posted 24 October , 2006 John SImon Lewis - see below - is buried at Baupaume Post as is Captain Henry Hutton Scott son of the famous Canadian padre. Alexander Mcclintock describes taking Scott ot his son's grave on the Somme and showing him the body. Scott describes the same scene in his book. I was amazed to discover McClintock was the man Scott wrote about, I had read his book 1st. Both are available from CEF Books and are terrific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 24 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 24 October , 2006 Hi Marco, Thank you very much for your input. I do wonder why Gavaghan deliberately muddies the waters. He chooses to quote from the same letter which you include on your site but only in part, implying that the bodies were lost. The bigger quotation gives a much more credible explanation. Although, it surely would have been much simpler to hand over the bodies to a search party without the cloak and dagger stuff! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan and Terry Posted 10 November , 2006 Share Posted 10 November , 2006 Interesting article in the Telegraph today 10/11/06 regarding the flag that was used to drape over the coffin of the unknown warrior.The flag belonged to David Railton and servd as his altar cloth on the Western front.Untill the Coronation of the queen in 1953 it hung above the tomb of the unknown Warrior,but was removed because it was in line with the TV cameras?Never put back it remains in a side chapel hardly seen.The Telegraph is asking people to write to the Dean of Westminister and M.P.'s to see if the flag can be put back in the place it was intended for,above the Tomb. Joan and Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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