The Great War

[PhilB]

Every time I read of the great enthusiasm to volunteer at the start of WW1, I find it hard to comprehend from today`s perspective. What I mean is - I can`t imagine anything like that reaction, from all classes of society, to a perceived current threat. And I wonder why that should be. Are we wiser? (I think not). Are we more informed, more suspicious, more complacent? Or did the Great War fix in the national memory that enthusiasm for war is not a good idea? Phil B

[Owen D]

I don't believe the Great War was the end of mass volunteering.

Look at the Southern Irish enlisting in the British Forces in WW2

http://www.reform.org/TheReformMovement_fi...rticles/war.htm

70 00 from Eire, 50 000 from Ulster.

120 000 for WW2 from all Ireland.

210 000 for WW1

I know that is not today but goes to show Volunteering continued after WW1.

Though not in a mass organised way as in Kitchener Army.

That's my two pence worth.

[andyspiller]

Phil

Talking to a friend about this the other night.

He was born in 1925 and couldn't wait for his 18th birthday and for his call-up papers to come through.

I think the the Govt was far more organised by 1939 and the whole process had changed anyway.

So, not so much rushing to volunteer because the Govt knew where you were anyway.

Rgds

Andy

[Tom Morgan]

What I think the Great War did was cause people to lose faith in the centuries-old way or organising things whereby leadership and influence were automatically assumed by those of suitable birth or position or wealth.

"Those who survived, emerged as different men. They and their friends had offered their all, trustingly, and they felt, right or wrong, that this trust had been squandered. The belief that their leaders knew best and knew all, this Victorian belief which had enabled them to entrust their very lives to the will and care of others, was as dead as the 5,415 men who lay out in the No-Man's Land of this Northern Sector. From now on, men would begin to think of themselves first, a little more often, and would want to have more of a say in the control of their own future."

Tom

[PhilB]

Would that refer to 1st July, Tom? Could it all have changed on that day? We`d had disasters before that didn`t change the belief in "the system". Phil B

[Tom Morgan]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Oct 20 2006, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Would that refer to 1st July, Tom? Could it all have changed on that day? We`d had disasters before that didn`t change the belief in "the system". Phil B

True, Phil, but I always think of how much the 1914 and 1915 volunteers offered up to be to be held in trust by the leaders who told them that their services were needed. Their families, their livelihoods, their ability to support their loved ones by their own efforts, and their lives.

I don't think that all this changed on a single day, but I do think that it was 1st July 1916 which made many of the survivors begin to wonder whether "the system" was really worthy of the faith which had been placed in it by the volunteers, who had everything to lose.

Tom

[Chris_Baker]

I think that the South Africa War / Great War period was a watershed.

BEFORE 1899: War is a rational, normal, instrument of policy. Wars are not, in living memory as it was in 1899, big. They involve a tiny proportion of the population, going off somewhere far away. You trust in your government to do the right thing and (in Britain at least) you know you will win. For the most part, you are also not well informed about war.

AFTER 1918: War is a bad thing. Wars are big and involve us all. Many people are affected by the battle casualties. You do not have faith in your government to do the right thing and you are not sure you will win: you are not even sure you know what "winning" means. Technology now means you are much better informed about the war.

Somewhere in between 1899 and the 1930's, (and I do not for a moment think this is triggered by a single day or event) the balance is tipped. Many people were puzzled and angry at the inept handling of the war in South Africa. Many were against being in that war. Many were affected by it. Still not enough to stop us doing it bigger and more enthusiastically in 1914. By 1918 of course it had affected all of us and was still definitely in living memory by 1939.

I strongly recommend anyone interested in this subject to read Peter Simkin's masterly analysis of why men volunteered in 1914 and 1915, in his book "Kitchener's Army".

[Desmond7]

Before I seriously started looking at the affect of the Great War on my town and district I would have stated ABSOLUTELY that the 1914-18 experience had a negative affect on recruiting for the 'second round'.

Since then, I've been looking at the 'old papers' for 1939-45 period.

Due to censorship, you don't have those long columns of 'flocking to the colours' - which is a pity in research terms - but this examination of the newspaper's contents has caused me to rethink.

Now I would say that recruitment in the 39-45 period was not nearly on the same scale as that in WW1 opening period .... but I have found plenty of evidence of 'whole family enlistment' ... sons of WW1 servicemen ... WW1 servicemen enlisting etc etc.

I think my view on this was originally formed simply by looking at the 'dead' roll of honour in our Memorial Park. The WW1 memorial contains hundreds of names ... and I now reckon some 650 men with connections to the Ballymena BOROUGH died in WW1. Far fewer died in WW2 and I was amazed to learn how many had died in training (espy the RAF types). The sheer number of men in 'technical' wings such as RAF, engineers etc etc is far greater as compared to the mostly infantry KIAs of WW1 vintage.

In short WW1 most certainly had an affect - but not nearly as great as I originally thought. Sorry for being long about that!

[Gibbo]

I agree with Andy's point that the attitude of the government as well as that of the people changed. In 1939, the policy seemed to be to call men up as they were needed & as uniforms, arms, accommodation & training facilities could be provided for them.

[Cliff. Hobson]

In 1938 we had the 1st Militia call up in 1939 the 2nd Militia so the pattern was set no need to volunteer, I remember talking to a friend of my Father who together they with several others walked some four miles to the nearest town ( Worksop) in 1914 to enlist.. He said at the time they were the daftest men in the Village.

Cliff.

[keithfazzani]

Surely one of the simple things about the First world war was that there were a lot of poor people. There was no real welfare state and men thought that at least they were guaranteed, clothes, three square meals a day and a roof over their head. Of course they had no concept of industrialised warfare and thought it would all be over in a short time.

[andyspiller]

Keith

I think a very simpilised view. Not something that I would want to discuss on-forum (for various reasons), but a PM would guarantee a reasonable response.

Rgds

Andy

[John_Hartley]

Not something that I would want to discuss on-forum (for various reasons),

Don't be shy, Andy.

Reasons why guys joined up has been a regular topic of the Forum. For me, it's one of the social issues I reckon always worth hearing someone's view on. For the record, I recently made a similar point to Keith regarding Pals Battalion recuitment in Manchester. Only really relevent for September 1914, but relevent notheless.

John

[Take on me]

Reasons why guys joined up has been a regular topic of the Forum. For me, it's one of the social issues I reckon always worth hearing someone's view on. For the record, I recently made a similar point to Keith regarding Pals Battalion recuitment in Manchester. Only really relevent for September 1914, but relevent notheless.

It was more than simple social issues. These men were usually not unemployed, as units like te Civil Service Rifles testify. I believe that many who answere the call in 1914 genuinly believed that the nation was under threat, or at least that a very bad thing had happened, the German invaision of Belgium, and it needed to be put right.

Add to those men who were motivated by simple feelings of nationalism and patriotism. There is also the group of men who joined up because 'it seemed the right thing to do' or alternatively 'because everything else was doing it.' Social factors porbably came into it as did the feeling of supporting friends or relatives who were in uniform. Thats what I would say anyway.

Jon

[Desmond7]

Perhaps the question should ne altered:0

In the wake of the 1930 s wave of pacifism .. books/movies/plays ... did the younger generation have a better AWARENESS of the reality of MODERN war. And thus ... a whole new argument. Still based on WW1 experience portrayed in whatever media format?

[John_Hartley]

These men were usually not unemployed,

Precisely the point I'd made in whatever the other thread was, Jon.

But in Manchester, the cotton trade suffered an almost total collapse during August. Men were out of work with no alternative means to support their families. I am sure it was a significant factor often ignored about recruitment in the early weeks. During the build-up to war and for a time in August, the city saw a significant anti-war sentiment (jobs and profit related)

Of course, during September trade picked up again and the fear of unemployment diminished.

John

[Tom Morgan]

The regional location is important, of course. I live in what was a heavily industrialised part of the country. My grandfather and his friend were certainly unemployed when they enlisted early in 1915.

Tom

[historydavid]

Phil,

In addition to the reasons given so far, I believe that the widespread reporting of the events of the FWW caused a change in people's perception.

Hitherto, reporting had been very much controled and limited by the authorities, so that if a bad report (from their point of view) slipped through it could be played down, ie "spin" employed. But the number of casualties, the cock-ups, the bad planning etc became visible to the general public and must have caused a lack of enthusiasm when it appeared that it was starting all over again.

Best wishes

David

[nfh249]

Back towards topic... there was a rush of volunteering into the TA, particularly from 1938 onwards. My grandfather (fatherless thanks to the first war) could see what was coming and joined the TA in early 1939. I'm not sure of his motives exactly, but many seem to have joined after Munich. The old cliche 'The storm clouds were gathering' seems to fit the bill.

Not sure whether such volunteering would happen today, but then again we aren't faced by the same obivous and organised threat as we were in 1914 and 1939. Then again there was a rise in people joining up in America in 2001/2002...

Regards,

Neil.