dreynoldsuk Posted 18 October , 2006 Share Posted 18 October , 2006 Hi, My gt grandfather was in WW1. He was already in the navy when the war broke out - in fact he was in the navy at the age of 11, having been 'saved' from the workhouse. By WW1 he was a clarinetist in the Royal Marine's Band. However, I cannot find any information about him and would love to see his service card. I have a lovely photograph of him in his uniform and one of him playing the clarinet on the deck of HMS Invincible, which he should have been on during the battle of Jutland, but luckily was one of 6 men chosen to play at an 'Officer's DO' - which consequently saved his life. His name is Henry Fogden and I have looked this up but the one who showed was in about 6 different regiments - was this usual? Might that be him? Were band members linked to other regiments? He was born in Brighton, but went to HMS Exmouth in London as a boy, ( by the way does anyone know at what age young boys were taken to HMS Exmouth for training?). I would greatly appreciate any help anyone could give me. Diane Reynolds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 18 October , 2006 Share Posted 18 October , 2006 Diane, There were two types of Royal Marines musician: those enlisted into the RMLI or RMA to serve in the Divisional Bands and those who entered the Royal Naval School of Music, which provided musicians to the Fleet. There were some exchanges between the two. It sounds as though your GGF may have been the latter. The Fleet Air Arm Museum holds many papers, including attestations, of the RNSofM men - they all have service numbers RMB/****. Do you have your GGF's number? Could you post his photograph? Forum member John Rawlinson may be able to deduce more from it. He did not serve in any "regiments". Have you mistakenly been looking him up in Army records? Marines are NOT Army! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 18 October , 2006 Share Posted 18 October , 2006 Diane Here is some info on Training Ships include HMS Exmouth. Dave http://www.workhouses.org.uk/index.html?tr...ningships.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 18 October , 2006 Share Posted 18 October , 2006 Diane, Welcome to the forum, Does his place and date of birth match this chap? http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=2 Regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 18 October , 2006 Share Posted 18 October , 2006 The information which Horatio has suggested that you get would be very helpful indeed in the mean time you may wish to see 'THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE ROYAL MARINES BAND SERVICE' an article in The Blue Band Magazine Online here http://www.royalmarinesbands.co.uk/history/develpoment.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreynoldsuk Posted 18 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 18 October , 2006 Hi Joseph and others who have replied, thank you everyone so much for your knowledgable and helpful replies, as well as interesting articles that I have enjoyed reading and have helped give me a picture of what life was like for my gt. Grandfather. My gt.grandfather's birth was August 2nd and he was born in Brighton, so this does seem like it is him. I have his DOB as 1887 on his birth certificate. Could you possibly explain the details it mentions to me. It is the first time I have looked at forces information. What would I get if I paid the £3.50? Thanks again for your time, much appreciated. Diane Reynolds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreynoldsuk Posted 18 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 18 October , 2006 Diane, There were two types of Royal Marines musician: those enlisted into the RMLI or RMA to serve in the Divisional Bands and those who entered the Royal Naval School of Music, which provided musicians to the Fleet. There were some exchanges between the two. It sounds as though your GGF may have been the latter. The Fleet Air Arm Museum holds many papers, including attestations, of the RNSofM men - they all have service numbers RMB/****. Do you have your GGF's number? Could you post his photograph? Forum member John Rawlinson may be able to deduce more from it. He did not serve in any "regiments". Have you mistakenly been looking him up in Army records? Marines are NOT Army! Hi, thanks for your reply. I don't have his number and am not sure how to find it. Another very helpful person on this site has found what I believe to be my gt gf's details. there was an 'official number' on that of: 345632 would that be his number? As for the photograph I will try to photograph it as it is very large. He isn't wearing a hat but the collar of his jacket has a harplike instrument on it. Later in the war he was on HMS Hibernia as well as HMS Invincible. Thanks again. Diane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 18 October , 2006 Share Posted 18 October , 2006 Diane, The document is his Service Certificate and can be downloaded from the National Archive for 3.50, it should give his full service details from joining to leaving. His number suggests he joined as a Royal Naval Bandsman, classed as miscellaneous. Well worth a look. Regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 19 October , 2006 Share Posted 19 October , 2006 It is possible that your man was not a Royal Marine but a naval musician (i.e. he wore naval uniform and was part of a ship's band - but not necessarily a RM band). If he is, indeed, the man Charles has suggested you should get his record on line from the NA and you might then wish to obtain his enlistment papers, which are also at the FAA Museum. The main thing, though, is to pin down first of all whether he was a naval rating or a marine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreynoldsuk Posted 19 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 19 October , 2006 Hi Horatio, On his marriage certificate and my grandmother's birth certificate he has put his occupation as bandsman (Royal Marines). I will pay for his service records and see what it says. Many thanks. Diane x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 19 October , 2006 Share Posted 19 October , 2006 Diane, Up until 1907 the Royal Navy had its own Bandsmen he could well have joined that and transferred to the Royal Marines later, the name date and place of birth is too much of a coincidence. Regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 20 October , 2006 Share Posted 20 October , 2006 The information which Horatio has suggested that you get would be very helpful indeed in the mean time you may wish to see 'THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE ROYAL MARINES BAND SERVICE' an article in The Blue Band Magazine Online here http://www.royalmarinesbands.co.uk/history/develpoment.htm Also look out for the diary of Bandmaster John Allen on the RMB website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Morcombe Posted 20 October , 2006 Share Posted 20 October , 2006 Dear Diane, Look him up in the RM medal roll at Kew (ADM/171/168 on microfilm). This will give you his RMB/*** number without any doubt. His name is sufficiently unusual to track down quite easily. When you have his RMB number, you can get his ADM/159 service sheet also at Kew & his full service papers from the FAA Museum. TTFN John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreynoldsuk Posted 20 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 20 October , 2006 Dear Diane, Look him up in the RM medal roll at Kew (ADM/171/168 on microfilm). This will give you his RMB/*** number without any doubt. His name is sufficiently unusual to track down quite easily. When you have his RMB number, you can get his ADM/159 service sheet also at Kew & his full service papers from the FAA Museum. TTFN John Hi, does this mean I need to pay a visit to London? Can anyone tell me if I just turn up or do I have to book an appointment? Have done most of my searches on the internet and family research centres. I love London but am feeling quite daunted at knowing what exactly I am asking for. I shall undoubtably make a fool of myself. Diane x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreynoldsuk Posted 20 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 20 October , 2006 Hi, I sent for the details given to me by Joseph and found out the following. His occupation is down as Exmouth. Then it says period of engagements and it gives the date '2nd Aug 1906 - 12yrs'. It then has details about his appearance. It says his complexion was 'fresh'. Anyone know what this actually meant? It lists the ships he has served on as: Impregnable 14/10.02 - 20/11/02 Black prince 21/11/02 - 31/12/03 Emerald 1/1/04 - 18/12/04 Are these all training ships? His rating is down as Ba. Boy . Can anyone enlighten me? It then says that he was discharged into the Marines. This is followed by L13m I/ (and I can't read the squiggle under the forward slash). Further down it says clothing and bedding gratuities. Under this it says £6 and then 10/- grat.forrais. V is. Impreg. Oct 02. The number at the top of the page is 345632. Is this his service number? I would be grateful and interested in any information anyone can give me about this information. Many thanks. Diane x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 20 October , 2006 Share Posted 20 October , 2006 His 12 year engagement started on his 18th birthday in 1906. He enlisted as a Band Boy in 1902 at the age of about 14. You can get his enlistment papers from the Fleet Air Arm Museum by quoting his service number. They may also be able to find his full RMB papers as a marine - it will be more difficult without his RMB service number but they may be prepared to search by name alone. Worth asking - give them his full names, etc, if you want to try, and the date of his transfer RN-RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreynoldsuk Posted 20 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 20 October , 2006 His 12 year engagement started on his 18th birthday in 1906. He enlisted as a Band Boy in 1902 at the age of about 14. You can get his enlistment papers from the Fleet Air Arm Museum by quoting his service number. They may also be able to find his full RMB papers as a marine - it will be more difficult without his RMB service number but they may be prepared to search by name alone. Worth asking - give them his full names, etc, if you want to try, and the date of his transfer RN-RM. Hi Horatio, thanks for your swift reply. I am so grateful for your help. I am in awe of the knowledge everyone has on this site and how willing everyone is to help. One further question, how can I find out his service number? It seems this is the key to getting more records. There seem to be lots of sites about WW1 soldiers, are there any for sailors and marines? Thanks again. Diane x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 20 October , 2006 Share Posted 20 October , 2006 Diane, His RN service number is the one on the record that you have obtained - 345632, probably with an M prefix. You will have to get his RM number from the NA, as advised by John Morecombe in his earlier posting. If you cannot get to Kew, there may be some kind soul on this Forum who could look it up for you when they are on a visit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 20 October , 2006 Share Posted 20 October , 2006 Diane, Black Prince became a harbor training ship in 1896, stationed at Queenstown, Ireland. She was renamed Emerald in 1903. In 1910 she was taken to Plymouth for use in the training facility there under the name Impregnable III. The old ship was sold for scrapping in 1923. Regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreynoldsuk Posted 20 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 20 October , 2006 Diane, His RN service number is the one on the record that you have obtained - 345632, probably with an M prefix. You will have to get his RM number from the NA, as advised by John Morecombe in his earlier posting. If you cannot get to Kew, there may be some kind soul on this Forum who could look it up for you when they are on a visit. Hi, I have been on the NA site but the only details that come up are the ones that were found for me previously. Is the NA a place I have to visit rather than use the internet for? I'm sorry to be such a nuisance. Diane x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreynoldsuk Posted 20 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 20 October , 2006 Diane, Black Prince became a harbor training ship in 1896, stationed at Queenstown, Ireland. She was renamed Emerald in 1903. In 1910 she was taken to Plymouth for use in the training facility there under the name Impregnable III. The old ship was sold for scrapping in 1923. Regards Charles Hi Charles, thanks for this information. I found it fascinating. I thought London was a long way away from his family but Ireland is even further. It's hard to believe that they sent such young boys so far away. Would they have had specific training at certain ships? My gt grandfather always spoke very highly of his time in the navy/marines. He remembered that they taught him skills he would never have had otherwise like reading, swimming and learning to play a musical instrument. It lifted him out of the gutter, saving him from the workhouse where he had spent his early years. After serving his 12 years, after the first world war, he had accumulated enough money to purchase a small grocer's shop. Sadly it was to later to burn down, without insurance, he lost everything. Thanks again. Diane x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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