Which Battalion of the East Kent Regiment(Buffs)?

[cherubdc]

Hi First of all I wanted to say what a fantastic forum......I spent 6 hours non-stopjust reading through last night(went to bed at 3.30am!) and now I think I feel brave enough to post!

I am extremely new to researching war history...it has always fascinated me and I have read bits and pieces in the past...but not to this extent.

I am researching my family history at present and I wanted to find out a bit more about my gt granddad and his war history.

I have downloaded his medal card but I was really hoping to find out a battalion for him so that I could research a bit further into where he may have fought. My Dad tells me that he fought at passchendaele and was shot a couple of times, my mum told me today that she remembers someone saying that he fought in Italy.

I wanted to find out if these bits of info are possibly true or just bits that are passed down in the family that might get elaborated on...if you know what I mean?!

I must admit reading about all the different regiments and battalions has blown my mind a bit and I am more confused now than when I started.

I have attached his medal card, because I am also unsure as to what the TP stands for on the medal entitlement area.

I have soooo many questions that I want to ask regarding the Buffs as my Grandad fought in WWII also with the Buffs, but I know this isn't the right place so I will ask my many questions elsewhere.

I can't get to Kew for various reasons(financial mostly)so thats out of the question for further investigation that way. I think this may be the end to what I can find out about him, but I was hoping that someone who was really up on the buffs in WWI might be able to give me an insight into the little bit of the info I have.

MY Gt Grandad's name was Richard Jacob Costen born in 1886 in Sittingbourne Kent(which is where I am from). He survived the war, which after reading all that I have just recently, absolutely astounds me!

Sorry if I have waffled on a bit much, bad habit of mine!.

Thank you in advance for any help or info, no matter how little, that anyone can give me.

Cherubdc

[Jonathan Saunders]

I have downloaded his medal card but I was really hoping to find out a battalion for him so that I could research a bit further into where he may have fought. My Dad tells me that he fought at passchendaele and was shot a couple of times, my mum told me today that she remembers someone saying that he fought in Italy.

Hi and welcome to the Forum. I have just had a quick look through the history of the Buffs in the Great War and i could find no mention of any of their battalions serving in Italy. Salonika was about the nearest theatre. I forget now but it was only about 5 divisions that served in Italy and for a short period - about 4 months.

No doubt a chap called Michael will pick up this thread and he may be able to give you an idea of which battalion through the service number. He might also be able to help with your other questions that are Buffs related.

[Jonathan Saunders]

Just one further thought ... if your G/Grandparents had children born during the Great War then there is a slim chance that the battalion was entered on the birth certificate of the child under father's occupation - you will need to identify the birth entry in the online registers and order the certificate, for which there is a fee, but it is another possible avenue to follow.

If Sittingbourne had an AVL (Absent Voters List) for 1918 then this may also give his battalion, presuming he was serving awy from home when the list was compiled. If there was one for Sittingbourne (and I know there was one for Rainham and Hartlip and they were part of the diocese of Milton at the time - same as Sittingbourne) then it will be at the County Records Centre, Springfield, Maidstone.

Costen, by the way, is a good old Kentish name.

[cherubdc]

First of all thank you for the welcome Johnathon Saunders.

I never thought about the birth certificate angle...I will have to look into it.....my grandad was born in 1914, his sister 1916 and then another brother 1920, so possibly he was serving in the period between 1916 and 1920.

I think that I recall reading that if there is no enrollment date or posting date, does this mean that he was enlisted after 1916?

Also I read something yesterday regarding the AVL yesterday, so I will have to a litte look for that again.

I read sooo much yesterday that I think my brain went into meltdown.....How do you recall all this information concerning where batallions fought and the like? It amazes me!

I will also look into the Salonika aspect...I really don't know much about his past, which kind of makes me feel guilty for not knowing what he went through.

Thank you so much for replying, I will seek out this mike you speak of!!lol

Thanks also for telling where I can find the AVL if there is one for Sittingbourne....off topic but just wanted to say how amazed I was that Milton was the reg district for so many areas around here!

The Costen name does seem to appear alot in Kent censuses.....in various mis-spellings I must add!lol

Thanks once again

Cherubdc

[Jonathan Saunders]

I think that I recall reading that if there is no enrollment date or posting date, does this mean that he was enlisted after 1916?

Not necessarily! The date entered on the MIC relates to the 1914 or 1915 Star and to receive this he must have been serving in a war theatre ie. France, Gallipoli etc. He could have been enlisted in 1915 but in training with his battalion in the UK. Many of the Service Battalions did not go to France until early 1916 but a large proportion of their soldiers would have joined up during 1915. As I said, hopefully Michael (aka Mick but not Mike!) might be able to help narrow down the possibilities of which battalion from his service number.

I guess little Milton was once larger than Sittingbourne and probably the most important clerical seat of power between Rochester and Canterbury. Registrations for births, marriages and deaths were once controlled by the church and did not become centralised through a national body until 1837. So I assume the diocese of Milton was historically the localised seat of power for Canterbury Cathedral. Which boringly links me to East Kent Regiment or West Kent Regiment - from 1908 Sittingbourne actually marked the boundary for recruitment between the two regiments but from Medway eastwards to Sittingbourne most men rightly considered themselves Men of Kent (east of the Medway) and so joined the East Kent Regiment on the outbreak of war. Men of West Kent being Kentish Men.

I'll get my coat ...

[Andrew Marshall]

Which boringly links me to East Kent Regiment or West Kent Regiment - from 1908 Sittingbourne actually marked the boundary for recruitment between the two regiments but from Medway eastwards to Sittingbourne most men rightly considered themselves Men of Kent (east of the Medway) and so joined the East Kent Regiment on the outbreak of war. Men of West Kent being Kentish Men.

I'll get my coat ...

Being a Kentish Man I understand where you're coming from and consider these "trivial" matters still important just like the men who enlisted in the Kent Regiments.

Regards

Andrew

[cherubdc]

I guess little Milton was once larger than Sittingbourne

Well back in the day it was a whole lot more important....I am milton born and bred so I think its sad that Sittingbourne took over, but that's the way it goes.

Just one more novice question....is there info that I could find without going to Kew?

I must confess to really not knowing much at all....I have read loads on the net but I tend to get more confused.

Ooh one more thing...sorry....Does anyone know what the TP stands for on the medal card or is it just a reference number to the listing of the medal?

Cherubdc

[cherubdc]

I have just realised that there is a dedicated forum for the medal card queries so if you want to ignore that last question please feel free and I will post it in the correct place.

[Jonathan Saunders]

Ooh one more thing...sorry....Does anyone know what the TP stands for on the medal card or is it just a reference number to the listing of the medal?

I should know this ... it is something to do with the reference to the medal roll. I dont think it has any direct and meaningful link to yr Grandad.

Re Milton, be grateful its still small (although growing). I despair that Rainham has turned from an albeit large village but boardered by orchards and woodland, into one huge concrete slab of houses.

[cherubdc]

Re Milton, be grateful its still small (although growing). I despair that Rainham has turned from an albeit large village but boardered by orchards and woodland, into one huge concrete slab of houses.

I know, it's sad isn't it? Sign of the times though! All the fields and meadows around milton that I played in as a kid are housing estates now!

Thanks re the medal card I rather thought it might be just a ref code after some further reading.

[Jonathan Saunders]

Being a Kentish Man I understand where you're coming from and consider these "trivial" matters still important just like the men who enlisted in the Kent Regiments.

Regards

Andrew

Sorry Andrew ... missed this earlier. As I am on a role of divulging useless info, Michael (on the Forum) is from somewhere like Dartford originally, a traditionally Royal West Kents recruiting area, but loves the Buffs and has accumulated a decent working knowledge of them. On the other hand I was born in Rainham (Kent), arguably West Kent recruiting area but really East Kent territory and I am pretty glad Michael made a mistake and followed the East Kent's because it means we dont clash with my increasing obsession with the Dirty Half Hundred.

[Michael]

Thanks for stepping across the Medway to help out with this one Jon.

I'm on a horrendous run of nights at the moment to ensure you all get your electricity. I'll look at this properly when I come out of hibernation next week.

Mick

PS You're right the AVL for Sittingbourne and Milton is at Maidstone (under Faversham) and the TP is just an old prefix for RF medal rolls

Initial thoughts are that his Buffs number is a 4th Bn post 1917 TF renumbering one which means he was post conscription. Remember our recent conversation in the Tuns reagrding post conscription men getting TF numbers rather than new army numbers? Could this fit in with my theory that some of them volunteered before the call-up to stay with the county regiment?

[Jonathan Saunders]

Remember our recent conversation in the Tuns reagrding post conscription men getting TF numbers rather than new army numbers? Could this fit in with my theory that some of them volunteered before the call-up to stay with the county regiment?

Yes I recall our conversation and I think it is a fair point. Is there anything in Messenger Call to Arms on this? Presume the Buffs History doesnt mention recruiting to this level? Also I assume irrespective of his service number, once in the Regiment he could have been posted to any of the battalions as necessary? I now think the AVL might be the best bet.

Mick - are you any good with Access? I have almost completed compiling the 40000+ names of the RWKs and have spreadsheets all over the place. And different spreadsheets for Gallantry awards, more spreadsheets for killed, where buried, nok and yet more spreadsheets for SWB (only about 10% completed), entry into war theatre for 1914 and 1915 Stars still a long way off. Is there anyway I can kick off a d/b with one set of spreadsheets (ie the VM/BWM MICs) and pull in the other spreadsheets as and when, using say name or number to identify where the new data is to be dumped or will I create a new record for each individual everytime I pull in another spreadsheet? Maybe a beer to discuss in the near future and when your off nights ...

[Black Watch]

I guess little Milton was once larger than Sittingbourne

Little Milton - One of my favourite blues guitarists.

[Michael]

Jon

There are many men who only have 6 figure TF numbers that never got drafted to TF Battalions. Can you have a look through your rolls to see if this is the case with the West Kents. I need to dig out some service records to see what was going on.

I have the same problem as you regarding data ie I end up searching lots of databases to find entries. The problem is that Access needs something unique in each record to set up relational databases. But...

Surnames are not unique and you do not always know their forenames / full initials

Numbers are not unique, especially if they are TF or their prefixes are not known

Officers have no numbers

One way round it is to combine the numerical part of their service number with their surname to create a primary key (unique ID). For example Pte Michael Mills G/1234 would become 1234Mills. I think it would be unlikely that you'd also have a Pte Michael Mills L/1234. But I do have some databases which don't have service numbers so this would involve some extra work to research and allocate them.

Officers could be kept separate or maybe you could allocate ficticious numbers for them.

We need to discuss this over a beer / curry

Mick

[Jonathan Saunders]

There are many men who only have 6 figure TF numbers that never got drafted to TF Battalions. Can you have a look through your rolls to see if this is the case with the West Kents. I need to dig out some service records to see what was going on.

Mick - Looked through my transcribed MIC lists from A to C and where bttn was given against a TF prefix they were as expected (4th Bn/5th Bn/ Cyclists/20th London) with one exception. One TF number was to 3 Bn but this was the 1st Reserve/Depot Bttn and there are several legitimate reasons why he may have been posted there ie. convalescing/home service after wounds.

Of the SWBs, I have transcribed only 500+ entries - none had the prefix TF and most are given as 3 Bttn anyway for the reason given above.

Primary Keys ... Im thinking about this.

Jon

[Armoured Farmer]

TP on the medal index card refers to the London Record Office which administered The London Regiment, Royal Fusiliers, Royal Defence Corps and Honourable artillery Company.

The TP-104-B refers to Royal Fusilier medal rolls for the British War and Victory Medal, 19 is the 19th section, and the most important, 2672, is the page number. This is now translated into a WO 329 reference to find the correct dmedal roll book to order at Kew to view the roll page itself.

Regards

Farmer

[cherubdc]

Thanks for that Farmer....I am really new to all this, so please excuse next question if it's an obvious thing, but when you say 19th section, does this refer to 19th section of the book that they are in?

If there are two units that a soldier served in....would the medals be awarded by the last unit they served in?

Like I said I am new to all this and am completely clueless to how it all works...I am learning with the more that I read, but I will doubtless still ask silly questions for a while yet!

I think I need a paint by numbers kind of guide to WWI!

Cherub

[Armoured Farmer]

Hello,

The reference is TP-104 B 19 page 2672. I say section, but I suppose it could be Book. The B references do not match clearly the medal roll books at Kew, which usually have about 300 pages each. I'm sorry I can't tell you more because I don't know more.

The medals would be impressed with the details of the man when he first went overseas. If he is later transferred then the roll would be compiled by the regiment he was with at the end of the war, which would record his details from both regiments, the first of which would be used.

I hope that is clear. If not, let me know.

Regards

Farmer

[Michael]

Jon

You'll pick them up in the BWM medal rolls eg

[Jonathan Saunders]

Jon

You'll pick them up in the BWM medal rolls eg

Mick - we're going off topic. I'll email you.

[cherubdc]

Farmer

The B references do not match clearly the medal roll books at Kew, which usually have about 300 pages each. I'm sorry I can't tell you more because

When I read the card I thought the B that you refer to may have been a 13, but even saying that, that would mean the number is 1319 so that wouldn't match either.

And yeah that makes sense regarding the medals and a subsequent transfer to elsewhere, thank you for explaining.